Which Dog has the best natural guard temperament when correctly bred?

[MountainDogs]

You make a great point Bantu, even in breeds that are bred for guarding often not every single puppy from one litter will end up being a great guardian.

I forgot to mention that (just in case anyone wonders) none of the LGD breeds are suited for PP work in the traditional sense of the word.
They can do the basic protection work but they can not be compared to HH, GSD's or B.Malinois from working lines when it comes to this.
Because they lack the high prey drive, they are very independent and difficult to call off; just to name a few things.

And I see I made a small mistake in my previous message, I wrote the word "dimensions" when I was naming some of the reasons why CO's are not used by the immoral people for dog fighting. I made it sound like CO's are massive, but although there is no maximum height or weight set for either the CO or the CAO, CAO's are typically a little bigger and heavier.
Especially the ones from modern lines.
I meant to say that people who keep CAO from fighting lines claim CO's are not built powerfully enough when compared with to their dogs and that they get tired more easily.
Whether this is true or not, I don't even care. I just think it would be truly disastrous for CO's to be hijacked by the nasty dog fighters and I hope this never happens.

I have not posted pics of my CO's before. I hope no one will mind if I just post their pictures in this topic.
Our male (he's the red one) is almost 31 inches tall and he weighs 120 lbs. The female is 26.5 inches and she weighs 107lbs:

 

[chuckorlando]

Love the one of him in the bird bath. ahahahahah. Awesome.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Mountaindogs, you have some beautiful dogs. My raw food lady has one they called Sumo and she is gorgeous from this side of the fence They had her brother but he didn't work out so he went back and while she loves this girl she herself said that she doesn't think that she will own another one.

 

[fila4me]

Mountain Dogs, your dogs are absolutely gorgeous!!!! your female is stunning, I love her coloring. thank you for the share!

 

[Bantu]

Mountaindogs you have some awesome dogs for sure. Thank you for posting the pics.

 

[tojvan]

I don't think you were being offensive.
And I am certainly not an expert either, I just love dogs (and then in particular the LGD breeds).
The point of my posts in this thread is to ask future owners to be more critical and demand correct proof of a breeder's claim.

You say there are a lot of CO's you have seen being fought in video's, but how do you know these are the modern CO's and not the North-Caucasian Volkodav's?
Most people outside the breed can't differentiate between the two.
Whether you believe me or not, there are no fighting lines within CO's. Which is unfortunately not the case with CAO, there are many well known fighting lines within CAO.
Now while there might be an occasional sociopath fighting his CO, this is not a regular occurrence within this breed.
In Russia and in Ukraine they sadly have glossy magazines about dog fighting; most of the "champions" represented in these magazines are either CAO or NCV's.
In fact when I was recently reading a Russian dog forum, someone was complaining and asking why CO's are hardly ever used for these so called Volkodav tournaments.
These sorry excuses for human beings luckily don't use CO's because of their high HA, their coats, their dimensions etc..

The whole fighting situation in these countries is truly tragic and heart breaking.

I never said anything negative about AlabaiUSA kennel.
I merely explained that within the breed CAO it's a hit or miss when it comes to finding a top notch guardian dog (and I explained why this is, lack of selection in this direction being the main reason). As I wrote before, this will all depend on the lines and the breeder.

I really appreciate all your thoughtful input, the more knowledge the better. I am not familiar with north caucasian volkodov, but from what i do know is they are smaller and have shorter coat, they have more stockier build. The ones i saw were pretty big from 30 to 32 inches (I'm estimating depending on the size of kangals) and had black/grey coat. I think it was bunch of random village wannabe tough guys doing it, most likely in turkey. Like you said there is always morons who do it, people in russia know the Russian breed, but can you say the same for people in turkey? I do agree with Caucasian not being dog aggressive for the most part, there is plenty of evidence supporting that. but they will stand there ground if they are challenged/ attacked etc.
If you dont mind me asking what made you have such a negative opinion of courageous Caucasian. what ever it maybe she hides it pretty well through her website.

 

[tojvan]

just saw pictures of your dogs, they are gorgeous, the black one has the "geogian bear look" that many breeders are pushing for. please share more picture/ vidoes of them in the future.

 

[MountainDogs]

Thank you everyone for the compliments, I think the two of them are absolutely gorgeous. But then I am biased lol

@BlackShadowCaneCorso, do you happen to have any pictures of Sumo? And do you perhaps know how her owner's experience was with the breeder (you can PM if you want to).
I have a feeling Sumo and our Phoebe come from the same kennel and are almost full sisters.
I remember seeing on the breeder's website a puppy named Sumo that went to Canada about two years ago.

Although I hope to always own a CO, I have to say they are very intense dogs.
Especially the ones who are more true to the old type (before the show fanciers got a hold of this breed) in character.
They are independent, have a mind of their own and can often challenge their owners in the beginning just to see how far they can get away with doing what they want.
So they require a very firm (but fair) and consistent owner. Most dog owners are not like that.

You can socialize these dogs and they will behave well at (for example) the vet's office, but you can never let your guard down with them.
The more protective CO's, like our male for instance, will not let a stranger approach their owner even when they are off their property.
They won't lunge and growl at random people when they are properly socialized, but if they decide someone is behaving in a threatening manner or if someone wants to come and pet them (this has happened to us several times because they look so fluffy and cuddly so people just want to pet them), they will release a deep, serious bark and growl to warn this person.

CO's are not for people who have a very active social life and often have guests over. You just can't underestimate the protectiveness of a well bred CO.
In a way, owning this breed is a lifestyle by itself only suited for people very experienced with naturally protective breeds, that will love even the more difficult attributes of this breed and will be 100 % committed.
I think people on this board who also have very protective dogs know exactly what I mean.

I really appreciate all your thoughtful input, the more knowledge the better. I am not familiar with north caucasian volkodov, but from what i do know is they are smaller and have shorter coat, they have more stockier build. The ones i saw were pretty big from 30 to 32 inches (I'm estimating depending on the size of kangals) and had black/grey coat. I think it was bunch of random village wannabe tough guys doing it, most likely in turkey. Like you said there is always morons who do it, people in russia know the Russian breed, but can you say the same for people in turkey? I do agree with Caucasian not being dog aggressive for the most part, there is plenty of evidence supporting that. but they will stand there ground if they are challenged/ attacked etc.
If you dont mind me asking what made you have such a negative opinion of courageous Caucasian. what ever it maybe she hides it pretty well through her website.

Thank you

Well, North Caucasian Volkodav's (Volkodav is a Russian word that loosely translated means wolf-crusher/wolf-strangler and in former Soviet Union they will use this word for any LGD that they think is capable of killing a wolf or has actually killed a wolf) are not really smaller or stockier than CO's.
There is so much variety within NCV's because they are not a recognized or even a "real" breed.
NCV's are mostly a mix of local aboriginal dogs from Caucasus and Central Asia that are nowadays bred mainly just for dog fighting.
Typically their tails are not docked so they resemble CO's even more because of that.

Don't get me wrong, CO's are very much dog aggressive towards strange dogs. But they will normally be very good with dogs they have been raised with.
This is how most other dogs from other LGD breeds are as well.
Some more so than others, with CAO's from fighting lines probably having the highest DA in the LGD group.
LGD's have always been canine aggressive towards strange canines because of their historical job as livestock guardians.
This is why it is relatively easy for immoral dog fighters to manipulate this instinct into creating what they need: dog fighting machines that will earn them money and entertain their sick heads.

Not only is it highly immoral and outrageous what these people are doing, but they are also destroying breeds like the Central Asian shepherds & the Turkish LGD breeds.
As these dogs from fighting lines are so dog aggressive that they or their descendants often are no longer suited to guard livestock in teams.
And if an LGD can not function in a team (which is necessary in order to scare off/fight off large predators), then he/she is not a good LGD.

 

[chuckorlando]

Sounds a bit like a Fila really. Not to compare the two. But seems the means of how to handle them, socialize them, and things to watch for are much like a fila. Even the stranger danger with others dogs. Kona is not dog aggressive, but she will kill a strange dog no problem if it found it's way in the yard

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I think most mastiff breeds were like Fila, its sad how much they've changed and still continue to...

 

[chuckorlando]

Thats what happens when looks out weigh function. "That head would look good on my dog" should not be the first thing a breeder thinks. And it's sad when an aggressive mastiff is frowned apon by most owners.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Thats what happens when looks out weigh function. "That head would look good on my dog" should not be the first thing a breeder thinks. And it's sad when an aggressive mastiff is frowned apon by most owners.

I agree

 

[Bantu]

I agree

Mastiffs were bred to be dressed up for halloween right?

 

[gamestaff]

I think most mastiff breeds were like Fila, its sad how much they've changed and still continue to...

well said.

 

[tojvan]

I think most mastiff breeds were like Fila, its sad how much they've changed and still continue to...

I agree, it truly is sad there was a time where these majestic dogs fought wars by their masters side. Straight up until death do us part lol

 

[tojvan]

Thats what happens when looks out weigh function. "That head would look good on my dog" should not be the first thing a breeder thinks. And it's sad when an aggressive mastiff is frowned apon by most owners.

Chuck it truly is sad if you want a friendly dog there are plenty of other breeds why try to change something that's already perfect the way it is. In my opinion fila is perfect the way it is, the fila has a monopoly when it comes to its temperament as guardian. I have no mercy for someone trying to change the breed for their on selfish reasons. You want a friendly houndy dog go get a blood hound.

 

[dheepakh]

Hi Mountain dogs! Your dogs are stunning! I always love to own either a CO or a TM. Do they suit a hot and humid climate. Please Help!

 

[MountainDogs]

I completely agree with Tojvan & chuckorlando, there are already plenty of large breeds out there that are solely bred as companion dogs.
Why there are people who feel the need to take these protective, working breeds and then soften them down and turn them into couch potato's is just beyond me.
Some breeds are simply not suited for everyone and they need to be preserved for people who will truly cherish and appreciate them.
But unfortunately some breeders only see dollar signs and that is all they care about..


@dheepak, thank you!
CO's and TM's thrive in cold, dry climates. While there are people out there who live in hot climates and keep these breeds, it is not something I would recommend.
I think it would be really unfair towards these dogs.
They really do not do well in hot climates and especially not in hot & humid climates.

Do you happen to live in India? I ask this because there is a TM subtype in India known as Gaddi Kutta, but they are usually found in northern India as far as I know.
And there is from what I understand a very reputable TM breeder in India that breeds TM's and can tell you a lot more about how well they do over there:
http://www.sarastmdokhyi.org/contact.shtml

 

[cinnamon roll]

WOW!!!!!! You dogs are absolutely stunning!!!!

 

[MountainDogs]

WOW!!!!!! You dogs are absolutely stunning!!!!

Thank you very much