Which Dog has the best natural guard temperament when correctly bred?

[Kiloteague]

Which dog has the best natural guard instinct when bred correctly.

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[ruthcatrin]

Your link doesn,t work?

 

[tojvan]

That depends on the situation but if you want the best of the best there are a couple ie Caucasian ovvharka, Central Asian Ovcharka or ALabai, TIbetan Mastiff( not the European bloodlines they are softened up, I'm referring to ones from Northern India, Nepal etc they take no prisoners), S.O.P AKA Serbian Defense Dog, Bohli Kutta( INDIAN MASTIFF also reffered to as the Beast from the east), Kangal.

My favourite The Fila brasileiro- perfect for certain people they hate everyone that is not part of the family. By family I mean immediate family. In the wrong hands they are extremely dangerous and can do some serious damage that also goes for all the dogs mentioned above

There are many other great guardian dogs but in my opinion those mentioned above are the finest of the finest and have the never back down attitude that you would want in a guardian if you are untrusting it with your life.

 

[chuckorlando]

I dont know whats the best. I do know that I want a dog that dont need taught to bite. Dont have to look pretty chassing a guy in a sleave all day, just willing to handle business from the depths of their soul What their dna tells them is right

 

[gamestaff]

a good guard dog is totally subjective depending on what is important to you. the best guard dog to you, may be totally inappropriate for what i want and vica versa. i know people (and i am sure many others of us do also) who have labs and swear they are the greatest guard dogs around. good for them. my experience is that i tried a neo (us bred), a tibetan (thailand import), bullmastiff (domestic bred), a dogo (arg import), a couple of corso (italian import and a us bred) and other breeds. i looked at some filas (us and canada bred), looked at some CO's (us and canada bred) and didn't find what i wanted in a full experience guard dog till i tried a presa. i very much liked some of the dogs i have had, especially the corsos (great dogs). the neo was a good dog. i would very much like to import a good CO at some point (it will likely never happen), but i am very impressed by the breed. there are many on here who are very happy with an em as a guard, you get my point. i like a presa. i don't like all presas, i like certain lines of working presas when it comes to the dog i choose to keep my family safe in the situation we are in. i don't like relying on what a breed description tells me a dog should be as a guard dog, i want to see and experience how a dog reacts in an honest, real (as real as a scenario can be made to be) played out defense situation. i will say that with the exception of the bullmastiff and tibetan, all of my guardian dogs have risen to the occasion and have "guarded" my person and property (meaning they physically engaged the threat), but very few acted completely in a way that i was totally impressed with. the corso and the presa went above and beyond. i am sure that each of us who have guard dogs feel that the dogs we have are what we want as total guard dogs, and that i why i think the question and answer to it are totally subjective.

 

[Tiger12490]

I agree that its subjective, what constitutes as the "best" guard dog? I own a Fila and Bandog both will without a doubt protect me... I know this.... but the way in which they actually guard and go about protecting is apples and oranges...and they are both still different than the Rottweilers I grew up with and the German Shepherds my wife owned...People, stop doing internet searches on the most bad-ass guard dog and get out there go to breeders go to shows and WATCH these dogs...Interact with them get to understand how they as a breed are different than other breeds....You might think you want a Land-shark and you really need a guppy... and you wont know that without doing some real footwork...STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER, AND WORK SOME DOGS!

 

[grazefull1]

I agree that its subjective, what constitutes as the "best" guard dog? I own a Fila and Bandog both will without a doubt protect me... I know this.... but the way in which they actually guard and go about protecting is apples and oranges...and they are both still different than the Rottweilers I grew up with and the German Shepherds my wife owned...People, stop doing internet searches on the most bad-ass guard dog and get out there go to breeders go to shows and WATCH these dogs...Interact with them get to understand how they as a breed are different than other breeds....You might think you want a Land-shark and you really need a guppy... and you wont know that without doing some real footwork...STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER, AND WORK SOME DOGS!

+1 lol i totally agree its best to go out there n find out what dog best fits your needs n not go by other people opinions because there not u n your not them everyone needs r different plus its more fun to c the dogs in action for yourself

 

[Bantu]

Fila.

 

[tojvan]

I dont know whats the best. I do know that I want a dog that dont need taught to bite. Dont have to look pretty chassing a guy in a sleave all day, just willing to handle business from the depths of their soul What their dna tells them is right

Chuck i know what you mean. Any one of the dogs mentioned above would do exactly that, ulesss you get it from a breeder who is trying to dull the temperament of the dog like many of them do. Why are you becoming the breeder of a dog if you don't like its temperament and want to change it, my answer to that is that they like the look of the dog so they keep what they like and get rid of what they don't. Same with Dog shows, to me dog shows do nothing to better the temperament of a Guardian breed; Rather than help to dull it since they need more mellowed down dogs and those dogs become champions and breed which produces the same. Breeds such as Caucasian Ovcharka still have their sharp temperament since they are fairly new to the show world, but at the pace at which things are going and self proclaimed breeders are popping up how long is that going to last.

 

[chuckorlando]

Yea I dont know enough about most of what was mentioned to comment one way or the other. I just know I wanted a dog that would bite. And no amount of sweet talk was gonna get you close. I also agree the definition of guard dog is in each persons mind. To me a guard dog is one that alerts to a problem more or less. If your dog barks at strange things it's guarding to me. The hard part aint finding a breed to do what you want theoretically. It's finding the line that aint garbage. Be it a fila or a neo. I dont care one bit what show titles you have. I dont care if he was grand champion super pubba official super winner. ahahaha. That just tells me a judge thought your dog was pretty. Over simplified I know. But I believe show's are in direct connection to the sissyfication of most all breads.

 

[MountainDogs]

I agree with pretty much everything that has been said in this topic, and I particularly agree with what Tiger12490 said.

You have to meet and experience breeds you are interested in, in person first. What people write about (rare) guardian breeds on the internet is often untrue or hyped up (I wrote about all common misconceptions about my breed on dogforums).
And you have to go visit the breeder at home too.
Many times breeders will make all kinds of claims, but when you go to visit their dogs you'll realize that was not what you were looking for.

Kangals and Bully Kutta's are usually far more DA than HA, so they are not breeds I personally would recommend as property guardians.
With Central Asian shepherds (Ovcharka is a Russian word for shepherd dog) it's hit and miss; it will all depend on the lines.
As I mentioned in of the other threads before, the Turkmen people would historically cull any Alabai (this is the word the Turkmen use to refer to their subtype within the CAO breed) that would appear human aggressive during the day.
And with so many CAO's being used for dog fighting nowadays (because this is such a lucrative business in former Soviet Union), far more CAO's are DA than HA.

Another thing that's important to remember is that the LGD type of guardian breeds are usually too independent and too stubborn for most dog owners out there. They are quite different from other dog breeds out there. Plus they do require a lot of space.
So a dog owner looking for a guardian breed has to do his/her homework so they can properly chose a breed that will fit within their lifestyle.

When I look at my breed (we own two Caucasian Ovcharka's), I do feel too many bad breeders are working hard on ruining this majestic breed.
I'm not against dog shows per se, because in some countries you can't get your breeding license if your breeding stock hasn't been evaluated on a dog show at least once and rated either excellent or very good.
On top of that, I know of several CO breeders who invested a lot of time and energy into their dogs so even though their dogs do have the correct protective temperament, they can still show them.
Of course it helps that they show in places where the judge doesn't opens the dog's mouth, the owner/handler does it.

But all that requires a lot of time and effort from the breeder. Most CO breeders will then simply chose to select for the prettiest, softest of character dog so they can more easily show them.
It is much easier to score a few show tittles and then sell your puppies for a higher price because their (grand) dam/sire is Ch. GCH, CWSG etc, without any regard for health or functionality of the breed.
To only select for the protective and stable temperament, good health, score the so called Guard Duty diploma (and other certificates according to the Russian model available out there that will show your CO has a temperament that's according to the breed standard) apparently is too much effort for most CO breeders out there.
So to me it is a combination of bad breeders and dog shows that are the reason so many (working) breeds are being ruined.

I particularly don't have anything good to say about almost all CO breeders in U.S. & Canada.
Almost none of them health test or temperament test (the one breeder I think is good no longer breeds).
To make matters worse, most of them import their CO's only from the large, commercial kennels that mainly breed for looks. And this is their foundation stock...
They seem to be more focused on making money and outmaneuvering their competitors than anything else unfortunately.
So while it's easier to find a good CO in Europe, if you are new to the breed or just not very careful, you still might end up with a dog that has health or temperament issues or both.

Caucasian Ovcharka's are not suited at all for most dog owners out there, but I thought I'd write this down in regard to the OP's question.

 

[Bantu]

I agree with all of the above MountainDogs. Nice post. This is why I believe as far as A. Most natural and B. Most consistent guardian the Fila tops the list. As mentioned most breeds have too many show breeders, or lack of selection. The Fila is heading this way as well but has not been as impacted yet.

 

[tojvan]

I agree with pretty much everything that has been said in this topic, and I particularly agree with what Tiger12490 said.

You have to meet and experience breeds you are interested in, in person first. What people write about (rare) guardian breeds on the internet is often untrue or hyped up (I wrote about all common misconceptions about my breed on dogforums).
And you have to go visit the breeder at home too.
Many times breeders will make all kinds of claims, but when you go to visit their dogs you'll realize that was not what you were looking for.

Kangals and Bully Kutta's are usually far more DA than HA, so they are not breeds I personally would recommend as property guardians.
With Central Asian shepherds (Ovcharka is a Russian word for shepherd dog) it's hit and miss; it will all depend on the lines.
As I mentioned in of the other threads before, the Turkmen people would historically cull any Alabai (this is the word the Turkmen use to refer to their subtype within the CAO breed) that would appear human aggressive during the day.
And with so many CAO's being used for dog fighting nowadays (because this is such a lucrative business in former Soviet Union), far more CAO's are DA than HA.

Another thing that's important to remember is that the LGD type of guardian breeds are usually too independent and too stubborn for most dog owners out there. They are quite different from other dog breeds out there. Plus they do require a lot of space.
So a dog owner looking for a guardian breed has to do his/her homework so they can properly chose a breed that will fit within their lifestyle.

When I look at my breed (we own two Caucasian Ovcharka's), I do feel too many bad breeders are working hard on ruining this majestic breed.
I'm not against dog shows per se, because in some countries you can't get your breeding license if your breeding stock hasn't been evaluated on a dog show at least once and rated either excellent or very good.
On top of that, I know of several CO breeders who invested a lot of time and energy into their dogs so even though their dogs do have the correct protective temperament, they can still show them.
Of course it helps that they show in places where the judge doesn't opens the dog's mouth, the owner/handler does it.

But all that requires a lot of time and effort from the breeder. Most CO breeders will then simply chose to select for the prettiest, softest of character dog so they can more easily show them.
It is much easier to score a few show tittles and then sell your puppies for a higher price because their (grand) dam/sire is Ch. GCH, CWSG etc, without any regard for health or functionality of the breed.
To only select for the protective and stable temperament, good health, score the so called Guard Duty diploma (and other certificates according to the Russian model available out there that will show your CO has a temperament that's according to the breed standard) apparently is too much effort for most CO breeders out there.
So to me it is a combination of bad breeders and dog shows that are the reason so many (working) breeds are being ruined.

I particularly don't have anything good to say about almost all CO breeders in U.S. & Canada.
Almost none of them health test or temperament test (the one breeder I think is good no longer breeds).
To make matters worse, most of them import their CO's only from the large, commercial kennels that mainly breed for looks. And this is their foundation stock...
They seem to be more focused on making money and outmaneuvering their competitors than anything else unfortunately.
So while it's easier to find a good CO in Europe, if you are new to the breed or just not very careful, you still might end up with a dog that has health or temperament issues or both.

Caucasian Ovcharka's are not suited at all for most dog owners out there, but I thought I'd write this down in regard to the OP's question.

I agree with most of what you wrote about except for what you wrote about the bully kutta. the correct name is Bohli kutta. When Britishers took over India they couldn't pronounce the name so they called it bully. The dog your referring to is found in Pakistan which is a dog mixed at an amazing proportion for the sake of dog fighting. There are like a dozen type depending on what they are mixed with. I'm referring to the original Bohli kutta whose courage even Alexander acknowledged. That is very much In danger of extinction and is found in India in Rajasthan and northern Punjab. It's phenomenal guardian, very protective and territorial of course with any territorial or dominant dog it can be used for dog fighting just like many CO are used in Asia. The reason it's still found In india is because dog fighting is illegal and is not popular unlike in Pakistan.
ALabai USA has great ALabai for family protection from ekimen bloodline, very protective.
Btw what do you think of courageous Caucasians, it's a US breeder.

 

[MountainDogs]

I agree with most of what you wrote about except for what you wrote about the bully kutta. the correct name is Bohli kutta. When Britishers took over India they couldn't pronounce the name so they called it bully. The dog your referring to is found in Pakistan which is a dog mixed at an amazing proportion for the sake of dog fighting. There are like a dozen type depending on what they are mixed with. I'm referring to the original Bohli kutta whose courage even Alexander acknowledged. That is very much In danger of extinction and is found in India in Rajasthan and northern Punjab. It's phenomenal guardian, very protective and territorial of course with any territorial or dominant dog it can be used for dog fighting just like many CO are used in Asia. The reason it's still found In india is because dog fighting is illegal and is not popular unlike in Pakistan.
ALabai USA has great ALabai for family protection from ekimen bloodline, very protective.
Btw what do you think of courageous Caucasians, it's a US breeder.

Not to sound mean or anything, but have you actually met this Indian Mastiff you are referring to in person ?
Have you ever owned one before or are you just going by what other people tell you?
There is so much on the internet about both the Bully and the Bohli Kutta, with Pakistani and Indian people arguing with each other and accusing each other of mixing the breed with Western molossers.
So much nationalism and ego involved. In situations like that I prefer to take all the info with a grain of salt.

You are very wrong when you claim many Caucasian Ovcharka's are used for dog fighting in Asia.
FCI Caucasian Ovcharka's are rarely used for dog fighting. All the pictures and video's you see are almost always either of Central Asian Ovcharka's or of the North-Caucasian Volkodav's.
Neither of them are CO's.
There is so much incorrect information about the CO on sites that are in English. I addressed all the common misconception about them here: http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/199362-dispelling-incorrect-information-about.html

As for CAO's being very protective, if you knew about the breed as much as you claim you do, you would know it is hit or miss with them.
I already explain what the Turkmen people used to do with human aggressive CAO's. There is a reason why the Soviets selected CO's for guarding of prison camps & borders and not the CAO.
That is not to say there are no protective CAO's out there, yes there are. For example the famous Ukrainian training facility called Ares has worked with several incredibly protective CAO's.
But that is not how most CAO's are, i.e. some are very protective, most are not that protective and then some are not protective at all and are very friendly towards all people.
This is common knowledge within the CAO world. It all depends on the lines and the breeder.

As for your last question, this is the breeder we got our female CO from. I have absolutely nothing good to say about that breeder. Nothing.
I deeply regret for ever dealing with that breeder in the first place.


To quote Tiger's great post again "People, stop doing internet searches on the most bad-ass guard dog and get out there go to breeders go to shows and WATCH these dogs"

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Mountain dogs your posting about the CO and CAO's were very interesting to say the least. Bookmarked it!

Maybe there is hope for my breed......

 

[tojvan]

Not to sound mean or anything, but have you actually met this Indian Mastiff you are referring to in person ?
Have you ever owned one before or are you just going by what other people tell you?
There is so much on the internet about both the Bully and the Bohli Kutta, with Pakistani and Indian people arguing with each other and accusing each other of mixing the breed with Western molossers.
So much nationalism and ego involved. In situations like that I prefer to take all the info with a grain of salt.

You are very wrong when you claim many Caucasian Ovcharka's are used for dog fighting in Asia.
FCI Caucasian Ovcharka's are rarely used for dog fighting. All the pictures and video's you see are almost always either of Central Asian Ovcharka's or of the North-Caucasian Volkodav's.
Neither of them are CO's.
There is so much incorrect information about the CO on sites that are in English. I addressed all the common misconception about them here: http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/199362-dispelling-incorrect-information-about.html

As for CAO's being very protective, if you knew about the breed as much as you claim you do, you would know it is hit or miss with them.
I already explain what the Turkmen people used to do with human aggressive CAO's. There is a reason why the Soviets selected CO's for guarding of prison camps & borders and not the CAO.
That is not to say there are no protective CAO's out there, yes there are. For example the famous Ukrainian training facility called Ares has worked with several incredibly protective CAO's.
But that is not how most CAO's are, i.e. some are very protective, most are not that protective and then some are not protective at all and are very friendly towards all people.
This is common knowledge within the CAO world. It all depends on the lines and the breeder.

As for your last question, this is the breeder we got our female CO from. I have absolutely nothing good to say about that breeder. Nothing.
I deeply regret for ever dealing with that breeder in the first place.


To quote Tiger's great post again "People, stop doing internet searches on the most bad-ass guard dog and get out there go to breeders go to shows and WATCH these dogs"

None offense taken I said something and you called me on it what's there to be offended about. Lol that was interesting first question yes I have seen the Indian mastiff I speak of I was born and partly raised in India. I have footage of some puppies and nice adolescent male that is nowhere on the net, I can post it if you don't believe me.
Before I say anything else I don't condone or do dog fighting at all. Now your comment about CO's rarely being used to fight is an opinion so I can't do much about that as I am entitled to mine that CO's are used more just rarely. There are plenty of YouTube videos of them doing exactly that along with kangals. Heck there was even a website dedicated to dogfighting done In Central Asia. Now I can't tell you if they were FCI registered or not since I don't know them personally. I was researching central Asian breeds and one thing led to another and I came across it. I'm sure if I dig deep enough I can find that for you as well.
Lol I never said I was an expert in anything you assumed it, when you say your an expert to me t means you know everything you to know about it and i still have a long way to go there is never enough information the nore the better. All I said that on the norm ALabai or CAO's make great guardian dog. ALabai USA has some great ones that I like the look of and they have plenty of temperament videos to prove their claim. And I came across one when I was walking my shepherd and he nearly bit my face off. I apologise if I said anything offensive as that was not my intention.

 

[MountainDogs]

Thank you for your kind words Deutsche_Doggen.

I do hope people who read my posts don't think I am being overly negative about all these dog breeds and I don't want to sound too preachy.
That was really not my intention.
While I do believe that a lot of molosser breeds have a great instinct for guarding and defending of their owners and property, not every huge, impressive looking dog will do the job.
Too many people see intimidating pictures of dogs, read the description of that breed on the internet and think everything that's written there must be true.

So for me, the bottom line is: buyer has to be critical.
A buyer looking for a serious guardian dog that can guard well without any previous training, should go see the dogs in person and ask the breeder how are they testing the natural ability of their breeding stock.
Where are the certificates?
What are they doing to preserve the health and functionality of their chosen breed?
To me a dog from a guardian breed should be aloof and reserved with strangers when they are off their property, I don't want to see this dog being all lovey-dovey or even friendly with people they never even met.
Last but not least, fighting dogs is not only immoral and unethical (and no person who loves animals should ever buy a dog from someone who either fights dogs themselves or imports dogs from a dog fighter), but it also important to remember that most dogs from fighting lines are quite friendly towards people and do not make very good guards.


I think until more buyers become very critical, bad dog breeders will continue to ruin these wonderful breeds in many different ways.

 

[MountainDogs]

None offense taken I said something and you called me on it what's there to be offended about. Lol that was interesting first question yes I have seen the Indian mastiff I speak of I was born and partly raised in India. I have footage of some puppies and nice adolescent male that is nowhere on the net, I can post it if you don't believe me.
Before I say anything else I don't condone or do dog fighting at all. Now your comment about CO's rarely being used to fight is an opinion so I can't do much about that as I am entitled to mine that CO's are used more just rarely. There are plenty of YouTube videos of them doing exactly that along with kangals. Heck there was even a website dedicated to dogfighting done In Central Asia. Now I can't tell you if they were FCI registered or not since I don't know them personally. I was researching central Asian breeds and one thing led to another and I came across it. I'm sure if I dig deep enough I can find that for you as well.
Lol I never said I was an expert in anything you assumed it, when you say your an expert to me t means you know everything you to know about it and i still have a long way to go there is never enough information the nore the better. All I said that on the norm ALabai or CAO's make great guardian dog. ALabai USA has some great ones that I like the look of and they have plenty of temperament videos to prove their claim. And I came across one when I was walking my shepherd and he nearly bit my face off. I apologise if I said anything offensive as that was not my intention.

I don't think you were being offensive.
And I am certainly not an expert either, I just love dogs (and then in particular the LGD breeds).
The point of my posts in this thread is to ask future owners to be more critical and demand correct proof of a breeder's claim.

You say there are a lot of CO's you have seen being fought in video's, but how do you know these are the modern CO's and not the North-Caucasian Volkodav's?
Most people outside the breed can't differentiate between the two.
Whether you believe me or not, there are no fighting lines within CO's. Which is unfortunately not the case with CAO, there are many well known fighting lines within CAO.
Now while there might be an occasional sociopath fighting his CO, this is not a regular occurrence within this breed.
In Russia and in Ukraine they sadly have glossy magazines about dog fighting; most of the "champions" represented in these magazines are either CAO or NCV's.
In fact when I was recently reading a Russian dog forum, someone was complaining and asking why CO's are hardly ever used for these so called Volkodav tournaments.
These sorry excuses for human beings luckily don't use CO's because of their high HA, their coats, their dimensions etc..

The whole fighting situation in these countries is truly tragic and heart breaking.

I never said anything negative about AlabaiUSA kennel.
I merely explained that within the breed CAO it's a hit or miss when it comes to finding a top notch guardian dog (and I explained why this is, lack of selection in this direction being the main reason). As I wrote before, this will all depend on the lines and the breeder.

 

[Bantu]

A buyer must be very critical. Choose wisely and do research! For instance most bandog breeders may only have 2-3 pups per litter, many times less, worth sending to homes for personal protection or property guardian. This is only after someone who knows what their doing has selected for traits (once a pup is purchased its then up to the owner to continue encourage any instinct to protect and build confidence). So basically only a quarter of a litter will engage a man. Even after there's variables to its will to continue defending its owner if the attacker puts up a good fight.

 

[Bantu]

Hey Mountaindogs how big are your CO's?? Have you posted pics yet? They seem like a nice fit in the mountains, a rugged hardy breed willing to take on predators 4 or 2 legged.