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What should we do?

Mamacast

Well-Known Member
I posted this issue under a different thread but thought I would start its own. New to this breed after having labs and berners. We researched this breed at dog shows and fostered a cane corso for a couple of months and loved the temperament. We just got our puppy at 9 weeks right after cropping and he now is 10 weeks and just had stitches out yesterday. While the vet was listening to his heart (she had one hand on one side of him and the other listening with the stethescope) he growled and snapped. Later that day when he was humping our old lab I said no and pulled him off and he growled and snapped again. I gave him a scruff shake and he went crazy with trying to bite. Today (one day later) my 24 year old son was holding him on his lap restraining him from getting down when he again growled and snapped, my son's auto response was to hold him at the neck and again he became even more vicious. The common denominator seems to be when he is restrained he attacks. I don't want to walk in fear of correcting him, looking for input on if this is manageable.
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
Hmmmm.... 10 weeks old is a bit young to be doing much other than reacting by instinct - and he's probably also testing boundaries to see what he can and can't get away with.

If he learns that growing and snapping get him his way, you're in for a long unhappy battle.

If you correct him with fear/frustration/anger in a physical manner (scruff shakes, hold downs, 'alpha roll-overs'), he'll probably respond in like kind, and when he's over 100lbs, that won't be pretty.

I'd go back to the basics. Put him on a NILF plan, ignore and/or redirect all bad behavior, or if it's really bad, calmly put him in his crate to cool-off (so you can cool-off, too).

Be sure to give him lots of things to do where you can reward him. Start training now for 'sit', 'down', 'come', 'look-at-me' (or 'watch me' or 'focus'), so you have things he can DO to get praise and rewards. There's a youtube video called "it's yer choice" that teaches young puppies impulse control (and 'leave it'), which would be a great thing to work on, too.

Denna is our first full mastiff, and we have had MUCH better luck with praise and positive reinforcement versus 'traditional' dominance/punishment training methods. The key for me, has been to bond with Denna so she wants to do as I ask, because we're partners. Now all I have to do is give her a firm 'no' for her to stop what she's doing (most of the time... we're not perfect) - then I give her something to DO, normally "sit" or "go to your rug"... to complete the removal of the bad action and replace it with something I can reward her for.

Since he was just at the vet... did he do a check for sensitive areas? Are his ears still achey? Does his tummy ache? Is he still on dewormers? was he responding out of fear/pain versus anger? When he's relaxed, can you do a full body massage, or does he have sensitive places he doesn't want you to touch at all?

One restraint method the Monks of New Skete use, which works GREAT with Denna, is to put the puppy in a sit, and then sit/squat right behind them, so you can hug them around the chest. Rub the chest in a soft, relaxing manner to calm the puppy down. Being behind and over the puppy, you are in a dominant position, but you're using that position to instill calm, relaxing energy.

Try not to get frustrated, you're just starting your journey together. Try everything you can to keep things positive and calm.
There are a number of threads on puppies being overly nippy, if you run into that more - it's not unheard of! :)

There's loads of support here - I'm sure someone else will chime in with some other recommendations soon, too.
 

angelbears

Well-Known Member
Excellent post Denna's mom!

I totally believe in NILF, It is not the end all be all but I believe it is a great starting point and gives a great foundation to build up on.

Also, if you have a dominant or reactive dog and you rough house with him don't be shocked when he amps it up in response. I would not play with him in this manner until you have complete control of him.
 

jersey girl

Well-Known Member
I think the pup needs time to trust and bond with you. You said you have only had him a week, so this may also be a reason for his behavior. I agree with Deena, grabbing by the scruff or alpha rolling will not go over well with a Corso. Corso's are very sensitive to their owner....putting him in his crate as a "cool off period" is great advice. Stay positive, he is still very young so you have time to turn this around.
 

Mamacast

Well-Known Member
Excellent post Denna's mom!

I totally believe in NILF, It is not the end all be all but I believe it is a great starting point and gives a great foundation to build up on.

Also, if you have a dominant or reactive dog and you rough house with him don't be shocked when he amps it up in response. I would not play with him in this manner until you have complete control of him.
I will be studying up on NILF, no rough housing in this house, we are not even letting him put his paws on us. I can tell when he does that that his goal is to control, I was outside tonight in the garden and he kept trying to keep my hands from working, my whole concept on puppy play has changed with this little guy!
 

Mamacast

Well-Known Member
I think the pup needs time to trust and bond with you. You said you have only had him a week, so this may also be a reason for his behavior. I agree with Deena, grabbing by the scruff or alpha rolling will not go over well with a Corso. Corso's are very sensitive to their owner....putting him in his crate as a "cool off period" is great advice. Stay positive, he is still very young so you have time to turn this around.
Thank you for the feedback, it has been hard not to over react to something I've never experienced before with a dog.Clearly the scruff shake was not effective! Talk about primal reaction....
Unfortunately a neighbor was over when I scruffed him and he turned on me-the same neighbor who made it her business to tell me when she found out we were getting this breed that a friend of hers had had one that "bit off someones face". Yea, I'm super sensitive!
 

marti1357

Well-Known Member
Mama, tell your neighbor that a dog of every breed (on planet earth) bit off someone's face. I can refer you to some cases.
Examples: Labs, Goldens, Poodles, even Chihuahua. That's the nature of some individual dogs.
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
Tell your neighbor that a pom has killed an infant, any and all dogs can do damage. I agree with Jersey Girl, the trust will take some time, as will the adjusting to his new life. The last thing you want to do right now is break that trust. NILF is good with dominant puppies as is distraction via training. I would teach the pup to focus and make training fun, so that he wants to work for you and learns that when he does as you want he is the best puppy in the world, when he doesn't he does not get attention. I would be careful about using the crate to discipline, no negative connotations should be associated with it. Still be fair and let him know you are in charge. Some dogs react differently to compulsion, some it amps up, some it calms down. Yours it would appear gets amped up. Also be sure to get him out and socialize like MAD.
 

raechiemay

Well-Known Member
My mom actually read me an article that was posted in response to the BM attack in OK. Dogs most likely to bite? Dachshunds. And oh wouldn't you know it. I'd like to think they actually tie the top stop with chihuahuas as I've been bitten by many. If it were me, I'd tell your neighbor to piss off. A lot of good suggestions posted on here. Keep us updated on his training!
 

SavingGrace

Well-Known Member
When my pups were new to going to the vet I would exercise them first to get them a little tired before going. This can take some of the anxiety out of it.

One of my trainers in the past was really big on ignoring the dog for bad behavior or redirecting - before we got our current CC I watched a lot of It's Me or the Dog - so I understood this tactic and tried it on our girl frequently when we first got her. At times, it works. I'm just not sure it works for every dog, every time. I'm not saying I disagree with it, or don't use it ever, and it may be a great starting point - but I found when I started trying to 're-direct' my pup with toys or treats - she quickly realized that she only had to do what I said when there was something in it for her. Granted she's extremely stubborn - and she did pick up on things faster when I used treat training, exceptionally fast. BUT the second I didn't have something to re-direct her, or bribe her with in my hand - the commands I gave meant nothing. We have and always have had a great bond - so it's not that I didn't bond with my girl. She learned very quickly how to manipulate the situation as many CC's do.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with the tactic, but I'm a little curious as to what is a successful way to transition into 'do what I say because that's what I asked you to do' when the dog hits it's teenage temper tantrum phase.

We overcame this with prong collar training, which proved to me, to be the most successful style of training for my CC for obedience. She wasn't always happy about it, but within the 5 week course I could easily see the transition into her respecting what I say and doing it without hesitation, or waiting for a treat. She now listens quite well.

With our Eurasier, I actually avoided treat training as much as I could. At 8 months old I had a consistent come, a perfect heel, and sit, stay and bow. Difference in the breed, I know - but I wonder how training would've gone if I'd avoided more of the treat training with the CC.

Again, I don't disagree with any style of training and I personally love training! I find it extremely interesting. I do think that this breed needs a firm and consistent hand in training. They quickly grow to be an enormous and powerful dog. Just curious how the transition is made to no treats.
 

SavingGrace

Well-Known Member
My mom actually read me an article that was posted in response to the BM attack in OK. Dogs most likely to bite? Dachshunds. And oh wouldn't you know it. I'd like to think they actually tie the top stop with chihuahuas as I've been bitten by many. If it were me, I'd tell your neighbor to piss off. A lot of good suggestions posted on here. Keep us updated on his training!

Haha, one of my family members has a Dachshund and boy is he a pistol, not in a good way either!!!
 

SavingGrace

Well-Known Member
I also agree with Cody about not using the crate for discipline. We have never, and were always told not to use the crate for discipline. This is their safe place and should never be associated in their minds as something negative. All of our dogs have loved their crates (while they were in them) and we never punished them by telling them to go to their crate.

IMO - since dogs live in the moment - sending them to 'time out' or 'ignoring them' doesn't really resolve the issue that they're in trouble for at that moment. For instance - if the puppy or dog pee'd on the rug, you'd calmly say "No!!" and rush it outside - this is part of the potty training process.

So just out of my curiosity (I am NOT being a smartass here) :
So if the dog does something bad and you ignore it or send it to time out - how do you know the dog is associating what they did with that? If a dog bites, and you give him a toy for that - in a smart dog, do they really learn that biting is bad and they can only bite that toy? Do they learn that if they bite they get a toy?

Now I get - dog is in Zoomies mode terrorizing the house and we re-direct and go for a walk. I have used the toys instead of biting me trick when our now CC was a puppy. I always wondered - as they grow up - how does this teach them that biting is wrong. How do they learn that "OW" truly means don't do that and NEVER do it again or to anyone else?

The dogs that are affectionate and need constant attention don't like being ignored, I get that. But how about the dog that is slightly more independent (as I posted in another post) that is hopping and digging in my garden and having a grand old time ruining my plants by herself? Can I re-direct that?

Honestly, I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong and I'm most certainly not trying to sound like a smartass - I just want to know more about people's experience with this type of training on a CC, what' worked, what hasn't?
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
I think it depends on the dog and the situation. For digging in the garden no, I wouldn't say ignore or redirect. However, why is the dog digging in the garden? Is it bored, too much excess energy? There are reasons, a tired puppy doesn't dig. In the case of this pup, being that the shake is agitating him I think a prong would as well. I had a female that we could not use the prong for corrections as it would agitate her more then subdue her. I think that it needs to fit the individual dog. That is the trouble with on line advise, we can't see the reactions. The best solution would be to get the pup into training asap with a trainer who understands the breed. Get this nipped in the bud before he goes up and it becomes a big problem.
 

Mamacast

Well-Known Member
Cody, thanks for the word. Yesterday we worked on the "Its yer move" exercises, and waiting for his food. We also did a kitchen session of place while I made dinner. He definitely tries very during training and I have never had an incident with his lashing out during these times. However... last night while watching TV he was playing with an antler between the couch and the coffee table. The antler had gone under the lower shelf far enough that he couldn't get it and when I reached under the shelf he yelped as though I had stepped on him and then atta
 

Mamacast

Well-Known Member
Cody, thanks for the word. Yesterday we worked on the "Its yer move" exercises, and waiting for his food. We also did a kitchen session of place while I made dinner. He definitely tries very during training and I have never had an incident with his lashing out during these times. However... last night while watching TV he was playing with an antler between the couch and the coffee table. The antler had gone under the lower shelf far enough that he couldn't get it and when I reached under the shelf he yelped as though I had stepped on him and then atta
Not sure what happened to all of my post, this forum does not seem to allow you to stay logged in very long, anyway, here is the rest of the post..
attacked. Mind you, he had played so hard an hour before with a Berner that we are watching that I know there is no way he experienced any more pain from anything I may have done to what the Berner had inflicted on him through play. My first response was to hold his neck so he couldn't reach me with his teeth, my husband came running because he couldn't believe the noise Gusto was making, and I was just trying to keep from getting bit. When the growling and snarling ended I let him up and I had my husband crate him to settle him down (pros and cons I understand but he definitely needed some time to re group-will reconsider for next time). When this startling experience occurs redirecting is the last thing on my mind, the only redirecting I am doing is to avoid teeth!
 

SavingGrace

Well-Known Member
He's a feisty little guy! I agree with Cody - get him in into training ASAP - explain these behaviors to the trainer and see what they recommend.
 

Mamacast

Well-Known Member
I think it depends on the dog and the situation. For digging in the garden no, I wouldn't say ignore or redirect. However, why is the dog digging in the garden? Is it bored, too much excess energy? There are reasons, a tired puppy doesn't dig. In the case of this pup, being that the shake is agitating him I think a prong would as well. I had a female that we could not use the prong for corrections as it would agitate her more then subdue her. I think that it needs to fit the individual dog. That is the trouble with on line advise, we can't see the reactions. The best solution would be to get the pup into training asap with a trainer who understands the breed. Get this nipped in the bud before he goes up and it becomes a big problem.
Thank you Cody, in the heat of a startling encounter my first reaction is to protect my hands and that resulted in this latest event with me holding him down until he quit trying to bite. What should I have done differently?
 

LizB

Well-Known Member
I don't have much to add here except that I think a professional trainer, a good one with recommendations from those you trust, is in order - it needs to be nipped in the bud for sure. Our dogs are trained with the NILF method and from their perspective, every bit of food, every toy and every bone belongs to the adult humans, and can be taken away at any time. So far we've never had an issue or challenge (our first bully mix NEVER got used to this, though!) with a mastiff but we still test it out periodically as a reminder. I'm glad your're looking into this now and not letting it go - this is definitely a feisty one!

As for the crate, I have a dane right now that recognizes when he's gotten overexcited and he will literally crate himself to get himself calmed down. For him it is not punishment, per se, but is a relief to him, because he's not happy when he's reactive and overexcited - he can't control himself and he doesn't like it, and he knows if he goes in his crate he'll feel better. The bullmastiffs I've had would have been highly offended at being crated, and definitely would have seen it as punishment. You do need to be careful crating a pup though, so it won't develop issues with being in the crate when you leave the house, etc., and get anxious and destructive in there.

Sometimes, though, when it is a case of a pup that has gone "red zone," I would have crated him as well, no matter the effects. Sorry you're having to go through this, but better to have it all sorted now rather than later.
 

SavingGrace

Well-Known Member
I had a thought - and I'm sure others will chime in - because I'm not sure if it will have any merit...

When our pups are real young we immediately start putting them on their backs and rubbing their belly. Both of them hated it at first and squirmed everywhere, but after 2-3 times of doing this they quickly realized that belly rubs were good and there was no reason to squirm. We did this consistently as they were puppies and continue to do it into adult-hood. Puppies don't like being on their backs - but forcing them to do something uncomfortable and then rewarding them with nice long calm belly rubs helps to teach them to trust you.

I'm not sure how this would go with a biter, you could try starting on the floor (we've done it on our laps until they outgrow it) and just roll him over onto his back for belly rubs. It's worked wonders for us in a lot of ways (at the vet, with new people, etc). I wonder if you could take baby steps to roll him on his back and rub his belly. Do this consistently and he might start learning that you're the boss - and that you're trustworthy.

I don't know if that's a dumb idea or not - just thought I'd throw it out there.