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Tibetan mastiff vs caucasian ovcharka

MountainDogs

Well-Known Member
Bullshit the CO isn't primarily a show dog in Russia. There are no Soviet factory kennels producing working CO anymore, that died off with the end of that era. And there are very few, if any, working CO in the Caucasus mountains. The police don't use them over there, the military doesn't use them over there... So, they are show dogs. In fact the are THE show dog, next to the CAO, in Russia. At least the Laiki breeds are tested in hunt trials as well as shown.

As for the "consistency with the guarding ability of a CO", I agree. That is why I chose the CO over the TM for my needs. However, I still stand behind my statement that most of the guarding display put on by COs are bluffs - this is proven over and over again once you actually test a CO on a guy in a suit. They have shit nerves when it comes to actually stopping a person. They put on a huge show - and that would scar 99.9% of any person off - but the few that can read dog language would walk right and cull the CO with no problem.

WRT a open or closed stud book, what does it matter? If breeders don't use it to improve the temperament of the breed, instead of just their looks, then it adds no value. Plus, I always read/hear about the "aboriginal CO" running around somewhere in the mountains that can be used to outcross to... Yet when someone actually shows me one, and their pedigree, come to find out they have the same stuff behind them that the rest of the CO do: Osman!


How are they merely show dogs if a breeder temperament tests them, makes sure the functionality is preserved and they end up being used as property/livestock guardian dog not merely a pet?
There are plenty of aboriginal CO's working as LGD's in Caucasus, but they are not called CO's over there. You already know all that.
I am not just talking about random LGD's on Caucasus, I am talking about aboriginal LGD's that would fit the CO breed standard.

I'm sure you have already seen this video, but I'm going to put it up for people who have not: [video=youtube;BVAvdrVoYac]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVAvdrVoYac&feature=related[/video]

How can you say the police does not use them over there when they are still used to guard factories and prisons?
Again, I'm sure you have seen this video before: [video=youtube;abi7Exva9Hg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abi7Exva9Hg[/video]

I have personally met and talked to people in former Yugoslavia, Hungary, Slovakia etc whose CO's was used strictly as a factory guard dog.

Some more pretty impressive video's of CO (this one has won a lot of dog shows btw): [video=youtube;ft5aD0bd_yQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft5aD0bd_yQ&feature=player_embedded[/video]

A CO from owner who worked with the very famous Ukrainian training facility Ares: [video=youtube;t5fb4lBoYEs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5fb4lBoYEs&feature=player_embedded[/video]


As for the open stud book. It is not used by the large, commercial breeders but there are other CO breeders out there who do make use of it.
But even if a kennel that breeds the more "aboriginal" CO's has Osman somewhere back in their pedigree's, why is that such a big deal? They are one and the same breed, I don't understand why it would be a problem to mix aboriginal with the more modern CO's?

To me it's important to avoid the genetic bottleneck, preserve the working ability/functionality and breed healthy, stable dogs while at the same time making sure your breeding stock confirms to the breed standard.
But all that costs a lot of time, money and energy and it is hard to find a breeder who thinks like this.
 

MountainDogs

Well-Known Member
P.S. I should have added that I talked with people who visited Caucasus both this year and the last year, took pictures, wrote down their impression etc.
 

BradA1878

Well-Known Member
So there are a few used in prisons, that's not enough to call them a "working breed". Plus the irony of that video is that the breeds shown doing the most amount of work are GSDs. The CO are just on the sidelines looking scary - why do you think that is?

The private sector might use them to guard factories, sure. But they are still bred for dogs shows and profit more than for factory guarding.

As for the videos of them doing protection work.... that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's terrible. If this is what the breeders use for selecting good dogs, it's no wonder the breed has fallen down the way it has. Really disappointing.

The first video, the dog is in avoidance in the beginning then, once the decoy gets a reaction from him, he gives the dog the sleeve to bite. As soon as the decoy does that the dog's focus is on the sleeve and he ignores the decoy. Then later he is playing with that tug - look at the posture of the decoy. the dog has plenty of opportunity to bite the man's face, but doesn't, instead he continues focused on the toy - playing the game. Also, in each bite section look at the posture of the dog - his weight it set back and his neck is stretched way out to give the bite - that's not commitment at all. This is a dog that has learned that in order for the "scary guy" to go away he has to take the abuse and bite the sleeve - this isn't a dog that WANTS to bite the bad guy. He's scared of the scary guy and wants it to end, so he does what he needs to do to end it. This is not a dog I would trust to protect me.

The second video, they are doing muzzle fighting in the first few exercises. Muzzle fighting always looks impressive but it's really useless. What is is teaching the dog? When the group of guys come at him you can even see the dog backing up, it's not till he realizes he is basically cornered that he decides to fight. Later, when the dog does get to bite (at 1:20) - he is in avoidance. He is even looking away from the decoy as the strange object he is holding out to him is too much pressure for the dog. Then the second bit (1:23) the decoy gets a bite because he puts NO pressure on the dog. He just walks up and the dog bites the suite, then goes for a hand bite - which is a typical fear-bite. Then, again with the muzzle fighting, watch the dog at 1:40, he is clearly trying to avoid the decoy until the owner puts pressure on the lead at which point she the dog then starts to move toward the guy - a learned behavior. THEN at 2:50 the dog even redirects back on the lady with the lead - the handler! In the less few bites you see the dog "stress humping" when on the bite - this is a sign of a dog who is just about to break into avoidance due to not being able to take the pressure from the decoy. The dog gives a few good bites to the decoy as he runs away - when he is giving the least amount of pressure possible. lol

Anyway, point is, every "good" CO I see doing protection work is actually pretty horrible. And it's a shame. The breed is amazing, if people would just select for the right traits it could *maybe* be a good protector not just a bluffer... but instead, we get this type of thing (in the videos).
 

MountainDogs

Well-Known Member
Well first of all, in the video number 2 (the one about the Russian prison) , those are not GSD's.
They are the East European shepherds, which was basically a mix of GSD's with several other breeds a long time ago (amongst which the Laiki and the CO).

Second of all, neither the CO in video number 3 (Elbrus) nor the CO in video number 4 (Kapa) is doing protection work. Not in the traditional sense of the word.
They are being temperament tested.
All the owner wants to see is how their dog will react. They look for confidence and for the dog to be willing to face the intruder.
They are not expecting them to behave like GSD's, B.Malinois or Dutch shepherds from working lines.
Because the CO is not an attack dog, they are a guardian breed. There is a difference.
Non the less this still should mean that if an intruder enters your property, they are going to be in serious, serious trouble.

What you seem to be looking for in a CO is something you should be looking for in other breeds, as you will not find it in a CO.
 

MountainDogs

Well-Known Member
I forgot to add one more thing (wish I could edit my posts instead, but anyway), normally a CO is being temperament tested after they turn 18 months.
Most breeders wait until their CO's are about 2 years though.
And normally their CO's have had no training what so ever. The goal is for the breeder to see the natural guardian ability of their dogs.
 

Asfad

Well-Known Member
Bullshit the CO isn't primarily a show dog in Russia. There are no Soviet factory kennels producing working CO anymore, that died off with the end of that era. And there are very few, if any, working CO in the Caucasus mountains. The police don't use them over there, the military doesn't use them over there... So, they are show dogs. In fact the are THE show dog, next to the CAO, in Russia. At least the Laiki breeds are tested in hunt trials as well as shown.

As for the "consistency with the guarding ability of a CO", I agree. That is why I chose the CO over the TM for my needs. However, I still stand behind my statement that most of the guarding display put on by COs are bluffs - this is proven over and over again once you actually test a CO on a guy in a suit. They have shit nerves when it comes to actually stopping a person. They put on a huge show - and that would scar 99.9% of any person off - but the few that can read dog language would walk right and cull the CO with no problem.

WRT a open or closed stud book, what does it matter? If breeders don't use it to improve the temperament of the breed, instead of just their looks, then it adds no value. Plus, I always read/hear about the "aboriginal CO" running around somewhere in the mountains that can be used to outcross to... Yet when someone actually shows me one, and their pedigree, come to find out they have the same stuff behind them that the rest of the CO do: Osman!
Yeah i think the breed still lives for its reputation rather then their temperment.I think this abilities are still present in cao's.I've met a guy 2 years ago and his dog was 10 years old and looked pretty healthy to me.And it was not over aggressive,but cautious.
 

BradA1878

Well-Known Member
Well first of all, in the video number 2 (the one about the Russian prison) , those are not GSD's.
They are the East European shepherds, which was basically a mix of GSD's with several other breeds a long time ago (amongst which the Laiki and the CO).
Ok, whatever. They're still not CO.

Second of all, neither the CO in video number 3 (Elbrus) nor the CO in video number 4 (Kapa) is doing protection work. Not in the traditional sense of the word.
They are being temperament tested.
All the owner wants to see is how their dog will react. They look for confidence and for the dog to be willing to face the intruder.
They are not expecting them to behave like GSD's, B.Malinois or Dutch shepherds from working lines.
Because the CO is not an attack dog, they are a guardian breed. There is a difference.
Non the less this still should mean that if an intruder enters your property, they are going to be in serious, serious trouble.
Both of those dogs clearly had been trained on a sleeve before those videos. That was not a test. They might want you to believe it's a test, but it mos def was not a test. Those dogs have been trained and worked before, it's very very clear to anyone who has experience in protection work and testing green dogs.

Of course they don't expect them to behave like Mali or GSD. However, they should expect a CO to engage a threat confidently and with commitment. Neither of the dogs in those videos show commitment or confidence.

What you seem to be looking for in a CO is something you should be looking for in other breeds, as you will not find it in a CO.
Not the case at all. I expect a CO to live up to the breed description. To have natural guardian instinct, give clear warning, and engage a threat when needed - man or beast. I expect them to be committed to defending their property and their flock/family, and I expect them to do so forwardly and with commitment. The dogs in the videos you posted show a natural suspicion, which is good, but they lack the confidence and commitment to really engage and eliminate a threat when put under real world pressure. I expect CO to do that naturally, and without training. Again, the dogs in the video had clearly been worked before (trained) and didn't have the commitment, resilience, or confidence to dispatch a human threat.

Now will these CO put on a nice big show (bluff), sure! Would that scare most anyone away, sure! That's great. But what I expect from my CO is for them to do that AND have the follow through to eliminate threat when pushed to that point.

I really don't mean to put down the breed. What I mean to do is to put down the breeders and the community. No one is testing these dogs they way they should be, and the work they are doing with them is shit (the videos you posted prove this point). The breed could be what it is supposed to be if the breeders were more knowledgeable and didn't make silly videos like the ones posted above to market their dogs to the uneducated buyer.
 

BradA1878

Well-Known Member
I forgot to add one more thing (wish I could edit my posts instead, but anyway), normally a CO is being temperament tested after they turn 18 months.
Most breeders wait until their CO's are about 2 years though.
And normally their CO's have had no training what so ever. The goal is for the breeder to see the natural guardian ability of their dogs.
That may be what is said, but the videos posted above were NOT green dogs. those dogs had been worked before. That is very very clear in the videos.
 

BradA1878

Well-Known Member
Yeah i think the breed still lives for its reputation rather then their temperment.I think this abilities are still present in cao's.I've met a guy 2 years ago and his dog was 10 years old and looked pretty healthy to me.And it was not over aggressive,but cautious.
I dunno, I've seen some pretty shitty CAO too. Lots of videos on the web of nervey CAO doing protection work or being tested. Plus, in Russia, the majority of the CAO are either show dogs or fighting dogs. You have to get away from Russia to get a CAS that has any real resemblance to the original molossers of Central Asia... BUT... They are typically not very human aggressive. The CO and TM are the few LGD-type breeds who have true human aggression, and it's just a shame that breeders have not properly kept that trait in the breed. the two breeds are full of suspicion (too much suspicion if you ask me), but lack the nerves and commitment to use it in a purposeful way.
 

MountainDogs

Well-Known Member
Brad, I personally talked to Elbrus's owner many times. And I also talked to the guy that's testing him in the video.
They both said on separate occasions that Elbrus has never been tested before. He never even saw a biting sleeve in his life before.
You can say maybe the owner lied, but why would the guy who tested him lie?
This is why I said I was impressed.

The guy who tested Elbrus feels little a bit more like you. He trains and works with mostly Belgian Malinois and Dutch shepherds and he feels the CO should be worked with from early on.
From when they are 3 months.
Most other CO breeders and owners that I've talked to, who would love to see this breed preserved as a working property/livestock guardian dog, tend to not agree with him.
They feel like you should not do any kind of protection training with this breed, at least not until the dog is 18 months or older.
Because they all want to see the natural protection ability of that dog.

In Russia or in Ukraine, these type of tests for a CO or CAO (known as "guard duty" tests) are not taken unless the dog is 18 months or older.
After that some owners continue to work with their CO's.
So basically what I'm trying to say: no one that I know of is working with these dogs like say KNPV works with their x shepherds.

I also expect a well bred CO to protect his owner, property, livestock/poultry with everything he's got on his own, without any instructions from me.
But I do not expect him to behave like a well trained police dog if that makes sense.


@ Asfad,
most CAO's are "softer" than a CO. On the previous page I shortly explained why (there is a huge variety within the breed + in some parts of Central Asia they used to always cull overly human aggressive dogs).
Brad is right though, in Russia most CAO's are either from show lines or fighting lines.
Over there they tend to lean the most towards the over-sized, modern Alabai type.
So to anyone who is looking for a CAO that resembles the aboriginal type and wants an LGD, then I would also advice to stay away from the Russian CAO breeders.
There are several CAO breeders in other eastern European countries that are really trying to preserve the CAO as an LGD and even a few in U.S.
 

BradA1878

Well-Known Member
The guy who tested Elbrus feels little a bit more like you. He trains and works with mostly Belgian Malinois and Dutch shepherds and he feels the CO should be worked with from early on.
From when they are 3 months.
Well, for the record, I don't actually think CO should be worked at an early age. Actually, I would test any PPD or Guard Dog until they are, at least, over a year old. I don't think a CO should need to be trained or conditioned to do their job the way a Mali or GSD is.

There is a VERY big difference, as you know, in working a Mali or GSD in Schutzhund. There is a fundamental issue with choosing a Schutzhund-based trainer to test a mastiff or LGD-type dog in PP work - and it's evident in the videos in how this trainer works the CO.

It may be that this trainer had not ever trained Elbrus, and Elbrus may not have had formal PP training before this video, but for sure Elbrus has seen and bitten a sleeve before this video and knows the drill.

Here is an example of a green dog - a young male Boerboel - being tested that shows commitment and confidence, and shows no signs of being trained before.

[video=youtube;YLnjJoFX9QY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLnjJoFX9QY[/video]

There's a big difference in this dog's reaction than the ones in the videos. You can see this dog is suspicious, but takes awhile to figure out there is a threat - because he's green - he's never seen a threat before. Then once he bites, he has to be choked off the decoy, because he's never done this before - and he is committed - he doesn't know that the decoy will run away if he gives a halfass bite. When testing a green dog, the dog should be made to believe the scenario it real (the second CO video at least tried to accomplish this aspect).

The COs in the other videos clearly already know the drill - they are going to bite the decoy and he is going to run away - they bite for this reason and this reason alone. No need to choke them off, because they know the exercise. No need to choke them off, because they aren't actually committed to hurting the person - they just want the person to go away because they are scared of him.
 

MountainDogs

Well-Known Member
I can only go by what someone tells me.
The owner of Elbrus and the guy who tested him both live in Croatia. And that is not a big country.
His owner also posted that video a while ago on an ex-Yugoslavian forum. There are several CO breeders on there who really do not like him.
If he was lying I think they would have been the first ones to know and out him.

To me, watching Elbrus, it looks more like he is biting because he wants the threat to go away.
I'm not an expert on training a dog for PP work, nor will I pretend to be one.
However, what I do know is that LGD breeds typically do not have a "full bite" and they have a strong self-preservation instinct.
To properly understand a mentality of an LGD you have to keep a few things in mind: their first line of defense is barking.
They will typically try to avoid to engage in a full on physical fight.
When they see that they have to, this is when they will place a lot of strategical bites, hoping the intruder will leave, if the opponent/intruder continues to fight back, this is when they'll try to eliminate him.

In my previous message I forgot to mention that in Russia, when they have specialty shows for CO's only, they also have special working classes.
Where only CO's who have earned their guard-duty diploma's can compete.
This is for example Vitoks Pahom, who was number one in the working class during the National CO show on May 1st in Moscow:
c46eb0a318e2.jpg


Another example of CO's being tested for the very first time (testing done by "Ares"):

[video=youtube;cCuV0bKowKI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCuV0bKowKI[/video]
 

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BradA1878

Well-Known Member
The COs in that video are not horrible. Actually the first one is not too bad (tho, I may be biased since his great grandfather is the father of my male).

I agree with you that an LGD-type breed should not engage every threat, and should first and foremost work to scare off a threat. However, I still think they should be confident and committed when they attack - and should be focused on the actual threat - not a sleeve or a toy.
 

MountainDogs

Well-Known Member
I absolutely agree, focusing on the actual threat only when they are being tested is what is supposed to separate them from the prey driven dogs that view PP work as a play/exercise.
At least that's what I've been always told.
Personally I feel if you are going to test a CO's natural protectiveness, it should be done by a guy in a suit and the dog should be off leash.
One time it should be done with the owner present and the other time without the owner there.
The guy who tested Elbrus claims he hasn't met many dogs (CO's, Sarpla's or any other breed he tested over the years) who protected as well when their owner wasn't present.

And if what he claims is true, then I believe this is a problem for a breed that is supposed to operate independently from their owner.
I would really like to test our own CO's one day. We will never breed them or anything (the female has allergies and we weren't interested in breeding them anyway), but we are very curious to see how they would react in a situation like that.
As they both appear pretty protective, the male perhaps more so than the female. But she is really confident too.

According to the owners of the sister of our male (from the same and the only litter done by a hobby breeder), they saw her chasing off 2 intruders who came in the middle of the night to try and rob their large garden supply store. She was only one year when that happened.
This garden supply store is on a big peace of a land, right next to their house and she guards all that on her own.
Her owners also have a Rottweiler, but he is too clingy. So they were looking for a breed that would have no problem being out all night and guard.