Tibetan mastiff vs caucasian ovcharka

[Asfad]

Which one do you guys think more reflects ancient molosser breeds.And which one do you guys think has better natural guarding instinct.I had a tibetan masiff but don't know much about the caucasian.Any one have experience with both breeds?Just wanted to know everyones opinion.

 

[Asfad]

sorry for my weak English.

 

[dheepakh]

Hi there. Tibetan mastiff is one of the oldest mastiff breeds. If you live in a cool place, this mastiff is suitable for you. also Tibetan mastiff and boerboels are the mastiff breeds which lives about 12-15 years. Caucasian shepherds are way too aggressive and they need more space than the above mentioned mastiffs. As per your question TMs is an ancient molosser breed. Both TMs and caucasians have natural guarding instinct. But the caucasians i have met are more of fear biters which makes them look like better guarding instinct. Enjoy your experience with a TM. Later go for a Caucasian. Your experience with a TM with help you in the future.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Which one do you guys think more reflects ancient molosser breeds.And which one do you guys think has better natural guarding instinct.I had a tibetan masiff but don't know much about the caucasian.Any one have experience with both breeds?Just wanted to know everyones opinion.

Hopefully Brad will stop by, he's got a CO. I don't know that one is "better" than another in general terms. Assuming you get the dog from a breeder with a clue. They have different approaches to guarding, so its more a matter of which works better for you.

 

[MountainDogs]

I own two Caucasian Ovcharka's and I wrote something about the history and the state of this breed in U.S. here: http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=293412

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=26869


What dheepakh claims is not true. A well bred CO is not a fear biter.
Nor are they these out of control monsters, they are simply very protective dogs that require very knowledgeable owners.
Tibetan mastiff's and Caucasian shepherds have a lot in common. According to a lot of theories, aboriginal TM's are the ancestors of aboriginal CO's and CAO's (CAO stands for Central Asian Ovcharka and is a cousin breed to the Caucasian Ovcharka's).
As you can read in the little breed description that I wrote on that site, the modern Caucasian shepherd, as we know the breed today were developed/selected by the Soviet military from the landrace LGD's found in Caucasus. Hence the name.

I've met a lot of TM's over the years and as I said, they do share a lot of similarities with CO's, but in general a CO is more aloof with strangers and more protective of their property/owner.
Both breeds require firm, consistent and knowledgeable owners.
I would also have to point out that both breeds need a minimum of 6ft fence, especially the Caucasian Ovcharka's.

 

[dheepakh]

Very well explained! Thank you.

 

[Asfad]

Very well explained! Thank you.

Yeah it was really helpfull.But what do you guys think the ancient molosser breed looked like which breed more?

 

[dheepakh]

I have heard that the ancient breed looked more like a TM. Since this breed is being kept as LGDS by the people on the plateaus of the himalayas.

 

[Asfad]

Hi there. Tibetan mastiff is one of the oldest mastiff breeds. If you live in a cool place, this mastiff is suitable for you. also Tibetan mastiff and boerboels are the mastiff breeds which lives about 12-15 years. Caucasian shepherds are way too aggressive and they need more space than the above mentioned mastiffs. As per your question TMs is an ancient molosser breed. Both TMs and caucasians have natural guarding instinct. But the caucasians i have met are more of fear biters which makes them look like better guarding instinct. Enjoy your experience with a TM. Later go for a Caucasian. Your experience with a TM with help you in the future.

well i dont know much about your experience with tm's but my big boy was heck of a guardian and was the most aggressive dog i ever had.He usually would not show aggression but when anything came near the fence of the yard it showed cat like reflexes.I miss him a lot.

 

[Asfad]

I have heard that the ancient breed looked more like a TM. Since this breed is being kept as LGDS by the people on the plateaus of the himalayas.

I've heard that the ancient breed looked more like the central asian shephard.I once saw a statue of a ancient molosser dog and it looked more like a central asian shephard.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Yeah it was really helpfull.But what do you guys think the ancient molosser breed looked like which breed more?

I can't speak for the CO, but for the TM it depends on what breeder you're getting the dog from. The fancy Chinese bred TMs that are all over the news don't look anything like the pictures of the working TMs from years past. On the other hand my Apollo does look fairly similer.

 

[Asfad]

I can't speak for the CO, but for the TM it depends on what breeder you're getting the dog from. The fancy Chinese bred TMs that are all over the news don't look anything like the pictures of the working TMs from years past. On the other hand my Apollo does look fairly similer.

I didnt had the dog from any breeder it was a gift for my brother from his friend who lives in nepal.He didnt had the time so i had to look after the dog.And yes i have saw about 6 TM's but any one of them wasn't looking like those chinese pricey dogs.

 

[Asfad]

And i heard those chinese TM's temparment are more like of chow's.Is it true?

 

[ruthcatrin]

And i heard those chinese TM's temparment are more like of chow's.Is it true?

I've never met one. But there's general speculation that those massively wrinkly fluffy TMs are really the result of crossing a TM with a Chow and a Neo and possible other breeds, so it wouldn't surprise me. I do know that recently there's been a several attacks by TMs on random children, where by all accounts the children were definetly NOT in anyway threatening the dog or owner.

 

[Asfad]

I've never met one. But there's general speculation that those massively wrinkly fluffy TMs are really the result of crossing a TM with a Chow and a Neo and possible other breeds, so it wouldn't surprise me. I do know that recently there's been a several attacks by TMs on random children, where by all accounts the children were definetly NOT in anyway threatening the dog or owner.

That doesn't sound like TM's temperment!I heard same kind of reports.Usually this behaviour belongs to the chows and they dont like childrens at all.Even childrens from their own house.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Have a look at the posting I put at dogs in the news thread.

 

[ruthcatrin]

That doesn't sound like TM's temperment!I heard same kind of reports.Usually this behaviour belongs to the chows and they dont like childrens at all.Even childrens from their own house.

Exactly. I do know chows who're good with kids, but the "typical" temperment often isn't, especially with strange children.

Of course we don't know socialization or training status of the attacking dogs, which can make a difference TOO, but still.

 

[BradA1878]

I think this question is impossible to answer for several reasons...

1) The TM of today, and the CO of today, as well as all the rest of the molosser breeds, bare little resemblance to their ancestors. Perhaps they have the same coat color, or the same coat length, or some other general cosmetic trait like that, but for sure their personalities and looks have changed greatly over the past (1000s) of years of artificial selection.

2) Both breed's have bloated and hyped historical information attached to their "breed profile", with very little of it based on actual proven history and little facts to back up the claims.

3) The term "ancient molosser breeds" is a contradiction. There were no dog breeds in ancient times, there was no purity in their lines. The only thing that created a population that *may* have resembled a breed iwas geographic isolation - which was only an issue in the very early days of the dog-human cohabitation. Even in Tibet, arguably one of the most remote areas in the world, had travelers and traders moving through it with their own dogs (via the silk road) since 206 BC – 220 AD. Certainly these dogs have changed considerably since then, no?

----

As for a temperament comparison, both breeds have a wide range. There are TMs and COs who are friendly to strangers and rarely guard. While there are also TMs and COs who are intolerant to strangers and very capable guardians.

In my personal experience, I've been less than impressed by the guarding of most of the TMs I have met in person (I've met around 20 TMs in person). However, I have met many COs who, while may be 100% bluffing, are rather impressive when guarding.

I think both the TM and CO has a high percentage of fear-biting and bluffing in the breeds. This is due to show people breeding dogs for the show ring, then placing them in homes as "guardians". There is a much larger show circuit here in the US for the TM than the CO, so one might assume that the CO would be less-refined in his/her guarding than the TM in the US... But, keep in mind, the CO is primarily a show dog in Russia, and is shown extensively throughout Russia and Europe - and all the dogs in the US come from these dogs that are being shown in the other countries.

I've owned COs for many years. I actually started my quest for an LGD-type guardian with true human aggression with the TM, but was unimpressed by the dogs I met in the US. I ended up going with the CO, and they served their purpose well for us - at one time we had 6 working CO on our ranch in Taos.

If one really wanted to own a dog more similar to the "ancient molosser breeds" of LGD, I'd probably look at getting one of the Central Asian Shepherd types - maybe a Tobet from kazakhstan where the dogs are not held to rigid breed standards and shown in dog shows and are still being mixed with sighthounds and other aboriginal dogs of the area to keep their workability and health.

 

[MountainDogs]

The CO is not primarily a show dog in Russia. That's not the real problem, the problem lies with CO being more of a milk cow for them in the past 10-15 years. But especially in the recent years.
All these huge, commercial kennels trying to make a buck by breeding up to 10 litters a year and selling them all over the world. Even to people with money in Africa.
Makes you wonder what kind of life a dog with such fur is going to have in a climate like that.
And these large, commercial CO kennels in Russia also happen to be the most famous ones.
Some of them temperament test, but to my knowledge none of them or almost none of them health test.
They breed mainly for looks as that is what helps them sell their dogs the quickest.
I'm in touch with CO breeders in Europe who show their dogs but they also temperament and health test them. They have even sold puppies that later turned out to be wonderful LGD's.
So yes you can really have it all as a breeder
But it takes a lot of work; these breeders are not in it for money, they are breeding out of love for this breed so that makes a difference.


Personally I feel like there is a lot more consistency with the guarding ability of a CO than any other naturally protective dog breed out there.
But I'm afraid this is going to be less and less the case with certain breeders actively trying to soften down the breed. Makes you wonder why they are involved with this breed in the first place.


There is also this common misconception that I've noticed with people thinking if they import a CO from Russia they somehow automatically have a good dog.
And this is just not true. You still have to do your homework and since you are going to pay so much money for a puppy, then by all means, go and visit the breeder in person and pick up the puppy yourself.
I made that mistake once and never again.
Don't settle for a breeder that doesn't health or temperament test. Ask them to show you the results of their dogs.
And don't fall for a breeder whose only sale pitch is that they breed with this famous line or that famous line.
All that is meaningless for people who love this breed and are merely looking for a stable, healthy guardian that's going to stay with them for the next 10-12 years.


To my knowledge neither CO or CAO have a closed stud book. It is still possible to bring in some aboriginal blood.
And those aboriginal dogs can get a conditional pedigree from RKF (known as B pedigree in some countries).
The fact that most major Russian breeds are no longer doing that doesn't means this is not the case.

As for CAO's, there is so much variety within that breed and it is true that one can easier find a more "ancient" type in this breed.
However, there is a lot of inconsistency in level of guarding within this breed.
In Turkmenistan for instance, they used to cull every single LGD that was aggressive towards humans during the day or just too aggressive in general.

And here is a video of a Kazakhstan Tobet filmed by a Russian crew.
Mind you, that journalist has never met these dogs before and yet they are all extremely friendly with him.
[video=youtube;DGOxTLjHl6M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGOxTLjHl6M[/video]



It's true that we now hear more often of a TM mauling someone.
But that again goes back to breeders who will sell to even irresponsible owners for money. And the irresponsible, inexperienced owners not making sure this large, guardian breed is always securely behind a minimum of a 6ft fence.

I'm sorry for writing such a long post, but hopefully this will be of some use to whoever is researching one of these breeds.

 

[BradA1878]

Bullshit the CO isn't primarily a show dog in Russia. There are no Soviet factory kennels producing working CO anymore, that died off with the end of that era. And there are very few, if any, working CO in the Caucasus mountains. The police don't use them over there, the military doesn't use them over there... So, they are show dogs. In fact the are THE show dog, next to the CAO, in Russia. At least the Laiki breeds are tested in hunt trials as well as shown.

As for the "consistency with the guarding ability of a CO", I agree. That is why I chose the CO over the TM for my needs. However, I still stand behind my statement that most of the guarding display put on by COs are bluffs - this is proven over and over again once you actually test a CO on a guy in a suit. They have shit nerves when it comes to actually stopping a person. They put on a huge show - and that would scar 99.9% of any person off - but the few that can read dog language would walk right and cull the CO with no problem.

WRT a open or closed stud book, what does it matter? If breeders don't use it to improve the temperament of the breed, instead of just their looks, then it adds no value. Plus, I always read/hear about the "aboriginal CO" running around somewhere in the mountains that can be used to outcross to... Yet when someone actually shows me one, and their pedigree, come to find out they have the same stuff behind them that the rest of the CO do: Osman!