strange aggression issue

[Caleb]

I agree with Cody, I'd like more info on the above quote. How do you "discipline" your dog?

Also, don't get caught up in the alpha/dominance meme. The dominance hierarchy concepts have been debunked by science since the late 70s. Domestic canine do not always follow strict dominance-based social structures, and in the few cases where they do it doesn't cross the species barrier (like from human to dogs). Also, dominance, as it's defined in ethology, has NOTHING to do with dog training.
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I totally second that! Ive never had to deal with a dog that challenged where they stand in the family as far as gaining dominance, and my dog is definitely dominant among dogs. Lots of training depends on how you treat and present yourself to the dog, the second you bring them home.

 

[Cody]

Our Corso has a happy growl and a smile. When we come back into the house from being out and first thing in the morning when she sees us, she shows us her front teeth (not a snarl, is just her little front teeth) and growls while wiggle butting out of control and tail going a mile a minute. It is hilarious, she now will do it if we tell her to show us her "happy face". Trust me, she is not telling us "where to go", she is just SSOO happy she has to tell us.

I don't know if I buy into that, dogs don't generally give happy growls unless it's a groan and not a growl, rotti's and chows tend to be growly anyway doesn't mean they are happy it usually is a sign of the dog saying "bug off and leave me alone" just because the dog never bit doesn't mean he wasn't telling the person where to go.

 

[BradA1878]

You know, we have a dog named Ahi who has bad knees. Way before we realized she had bad knees she would growl at us when we tried to cut her rear toenails. She would get pretty nasty - never bit us, but sounded really bad. The interesting thing was that she would allow strangers to cut her nails fine, without growling at all. We figured this was due to her being comfortable with us, and there for willing to communicate freely with us.

Perhaps the back/neck issue thing, coupled with a similar situation to Ahi, is a good guess. Maybe your pup is comfortable with telling you he's hurt but not others. (???)

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[cindy]

Ripsmom,
I agree I think its a dominance issue because if you push her to far she does show her teeth it is not a happy growl she has been through obedience classes she is excellent off leash and with all her commands what to you suggest we do for behavioral exercises to make her learn her place.

Thanks again everyone for all your help
Cindy

 

[Cody]

Have you taken her to the vet to rule out pain?
It can't hurt, better safe then sorry.

 

[BradA1878]

Ripsmom,
I agree I think its a dominance issue because if you push her to far she does show her teeth it is not a happy growl she has been through obedience classes she is excellent off leash and with all her commands what to you suggest we do for behavioral exercises to make her learn her place.

You should read this: http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/alpha-fallacy

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[cindy]

Brad,
She waits to go out the door after us, if she gets up on her favorite chair without permission we tell her off, She has been eating out of he bowl while I hold it(3 weeks now) and she still growls when I pet her while I hold the bowl and she is eating, I remove the bowl and tell her NO but I think she gets confused on what we are telling her No for. I think she thinks we are telling her No don't eat not No to the growl.She knows her long stay I don't know what we could be doing wrong we tried a choke collar to correct her from the growls and that seem to make her worse. Someone suggusted behavioral exercises but never gave me any to do.

Thanks Cindy

 

[Caleb]

I dont believe that a choke collar would be a good discipline tool. Choke collars are good for leash training and so that a dog cant back out of their collar. I know Im probably going to get attacked for saying this, but if my dog growled at me today, I would break a wooden chair over his head and put him outside in the heat without food for a few days. Dont get me wrong...The last time I had to discipline my dog was over a year ago for dog aggression, and he has it better than the rest of us, has complete run of the house and lives a pampered and stimulating life. But discipline is very important at a very early age. A dog needs to know that if they get aggressive with you, the owner, their life is gonna be insanely miserable. Ive never had to address that and it surprises me to hear of all the accounts of dogs challenging their owner in that fashion. Hopefully you dont have children in the house....because when growling turns to biting, thats a terrible thing!

I realize that you are looking for a solution, and I dont imagine that you will be throwing furniture at your dog, LOL, but it sounds like you might want to take discipline to the next level and show that dog who's boss!

 

[BradA1878]

RE: Growling

I don't mean to be argumentative here, and I realize everyone has their own opinion for how to raise and train their dog. I also realize I am not an expert and my advice is simply opinion. But...

For Dogs, growling is a form of communication. It's actually one of the only forms of communication a dog has in his/her "social toolbox" that we humans naturally understand (without being educated on dog behavior). If you punish your dog for growling, whether by breaking a chair over your dogs head or simply by saying the word "no", you are "turning off" that communication channel. If you punish him/her for that behavior enough, they'll stop growling, but that doesn't mean the underlying reason for the growl has been corrected (ie the behavior - growling - has been extinguished).

The result of the removal of the growling behavior from your dogs "social toolbox" creates a situation where your dog cannot communicating his/her intentions effectively. Then, in a situation where a growl would give a clear warning to you or a stranger your dog will not use that communication tool and will instead move up the "ladder of aggression" and on to a bite. Thus, biting/snapping without clear warning. That type of situation is far more dangerous than a dog who growls and shows clear intent before he/she bites.

Unfortunately, punishing a dog for growling doesn't "teach" the dog not to growl during a specific behavior or not to do a specific behavior (guard food, for example), it only "teaches" the dog not to growl - ever. This is why I've gotten into the habit of thanking my dog when they growl. I tell them "thank you", and then stop doing what they are asking me not to do. This shows them that I'm listening to them, and understand them. I then approach the issues from a different angle (sometimes literally). I don't let them "win" by allowing them to growl, I simply show them that I'm listening to them, and I work with them in a way that they are comfortable with. Often the growl is for a very specific reason and I can accomplish my intended goal by changing my approach.

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Brad,
She waits to go out the door after us, if she gets up on her favorite chair without permission we tell her off, She has been eating out of he bowl while I hold it(3 weeks now) and she still growls when I pet her while I hold the bowl and she is eating, I remove the bowl and tell her NO but I think she gets confused on what we are telling her No for. I think she thinks we are telling her No don't eat not No to the growl.She knows her long stay I don't know what we could be doing wrong we tried a choke collar to correct her from the growls and that seem to make her worse. Someone suggusted behavioral exercises but never gave me any to do.

Thanks Cindy

I agree, she sounds confused, and I really think you should get her to the vet to see if she is in pain.

Other than that, I would try Classical Conditioning...

I'm no expert, but I would take a very yummy treat (like a hot dog), hold it for her to eat some and as soon as she starts to eat it I would start to pet her head for a second or two. Then stop petting her head and remove the treat immediately if she growls. Keep doing this, only in short time periods. The point is to associate you petting her with a good thing (the treat). It's also important that you don't smack her on the head, as that then associates you touching her head with pain - and that will confuse her even more.

Another thing you could do is pet her head while she is eating, like you have been doing, but when she growls, slowly move your hand to a different area on her (still petting gently) - like her neck or side (an area where she is comfortable with being touched) and pet her there for a bit... Then slowly move back toward her head stopping in that location and petting when she growls. This will help her learn that you understand what she is telling you, and it will build trust, and over time she may become more comfortable with you touching her head while she eats, and less confused in the training.

 

[Caleb]

There's nothing wrong with argumentative. LOL. I understand that we all have different opinions, and I think that your points are very valid....and no, I don't have a habit of beating my dog. I would be quite flabbergasted if my dog growled at me, for its not in his nature. Maybe my dog has been easy, but he was always a rambunctuous puppy, but I would come down pretty hard on an 8 month old mastiff that started grumbling at me. Ive made lots of adjustments, even lifestyle changes for my dog, but for growling moodiness when I was simply petting the dog around its food, something would have to give, and it would be the dog. FYI..that is my opinion, and i value and learn from others opinions, and yours, Brad...for my experience with owning a dog that growls at me is zero!

 

[BradA1878]

Let me also say this, I get it! I'm no saint...

We had this Akita who would growl at me after I gave him his food. If I hung around him too long after I gave him his food he'd start growling at me. This pissed me off so bad, I mean it made my blood boil. I would think to myself "I just GAVE you that food. Why would I take if from you now? Are you that stupid? I mean I don't want your freaking food! I provided it to you, like I do every freaking day ... And you growl at me for it?" ... It honestley makes me a little mad just thinking about it. LOL

Anyway, I tried various things - yelling at him, stand there till he stopped, taking the food away. But at the end of the day, the thing that helped us get past that point in our relationship was me respecting his growl, walking away, then returning and tossing a treat in his food bowl as he eat. Eventually he started to look forward to me coming up to him when he was in his crate, whether eating or not. I guess he thought "Oh, that guy is coming back, maybe he'll give me a treat again" ... instead of "Oh, that guy is coming to take my food from me".

Still tho, even while I was doing that exercise, I thought to my self (every time he growled at me) how I'd like to just stop giving him food if he was gonna be such an ass about it.

So, I speak from experience and I'm not pretending it's easy.

Also, the fact that she's a pup is more of a reason to teach her how to communicate properly and that you will listen to her. Better to tech them these things young - set them up for success.

 

[Caleb]

You are more patient than I. Thats a good quality to possess, for blood pressure and all.

 

[PuppyPaws]

Let me also say this, I get it! I'm no saint...


But at the end of the day, the thing that helped us get past that point in our relationship was me respecting his growl, walking away, then returning and tossing a treat in his food bowl as he eat. Eventually he started to look forward to me coming up to him when he was in his crate, whether eating or not. I guess he thought "Oh, that guy is coming back, maybe he'll give me a treat again" ... instead of "Oh, that guy is coming to take my food from me".

Also, the fact that she's a pup is more of a reason to teach her how to communicate properly and that you will listen to her. Better to tech them these things young - set them up for success.

I was going to suggest trying that approach with the dog. Glad to hear it worked for you! Maybe that is something to try. I also think you should respect the growl. It is there for a reason. You are probably exactly right when you said you thought she is confused. I think she very likely is and I think your instincts about it are right. Try coming at it from a different angle. Also, get her checked by a vet to rule out any pain. Good Luck!

 

[Caleb]

If my life didnt involve young children in the house, I might be able to "respect the growl". My dog used to eat in the house before we decided it was too messy, and the kids used to crawl over to the food bowl and take food, and whatever from my dog. We never had to train in that area, and live in harmony, the way that I had imagined it before I had the dog, or the kids. The dog is at the same time very aggressive towards people we dont know, and absolutely brutal on the hunt. I would classify this type of temperament as very "stable". I believe "respecting a growl", especially in terms of food aggression, in a home with children could end tragically....and after reading some posts on this forum, it often does. So, I guess in a certain senario, there are ways to respect a growl. In my case, it would be putting the dogs rediculous temperament ahead of my childrens' safety. Ive read 2 cases here on this forum in the last couple of months where dogs were growling when being pet, and over food, and ended up biting children, both were injured, ones face was badly bitten requiring stitches, and people were looking for a passive solution for the dog. Im sorry, but I come from a totally different school of thought. I dont expect you all to be in agreement, and thats fine. Im also not at all offended by posts trying to set me straight. Everyone is different, and I can just hope that this all ends well, not only for the dog, but the people involved.

 

[BradA1878]

If my life didnt involve young children in the house, I might be able to "respect the growl" [...] In my case, it would be putting the dogs rediculous temperament ahead of my childrens' safety. Ive read 2 cases here on this forum in the last couple of months where dogs were growling when being pet, and over food, and ended up biting children, both were injured, ones face was badly bitten requiring stitches, and people were looking for a passive solution for the dog.

I'd rather have a dog that gives clear warning than a dog that bites with no warning. A dog that bites with no warning seems like a much more dangerous dog around children than a dog that gives clear warning. I mean, when has a growl ever hurt someone?

Having written that, kids come first. If one of my dogs growled at Chase they would not be allowed around my child ever again and I would re-home them. End of story.

There are situation where adults respect a dog's growl, manage the situation responsibly, and set the situation up for success so that children do not get hurt, and then there are situation where adults ignore warning signs, are neglectful in the management of the situation, and set the situation up for failure which end with children being hurt. Both situations may involve a growling dog, but one doesn't equal the other. Two very different scenarios.

[...] I dont expect you all to be in agreement, and thats fine. Im also not at all offended by posts trying to set me straight. Everyone is different, and I can just hope that this all ends well, not only for the dog, but the people involved.

I agree, I hope no children get hurt! And to the OP, don't put your children at risk!

 

[Caleb]

I agree about the "clear warning signs" vs a dog that just bites. But I know that my dog will not "just bite"....If that were the case, I would prefere the growl first...so yes, very true. About a month ago my 2 year old jumped off the second step and landed on top of Lu with his knees. Lu gave him a shaking, angry bark. It scared my son,and he started crying and Lu just layed his head back down and went back to sleep. I then commenced to getting after my son for what he did, and was very proud of how Lu handled it. It was the first time the dog ever had to get that way about the kids so it did set the wheels spinning in my head and made me realize how careful I need to be, especially keeping the kids from doing stupid things to the dog. If I were single with no kids, I could definitely work with a growling dog. I enjoy being able to trust my dog with my kids. I just wish I could trust my kids with my dog.

 

[PuppyPaws]

I'd rather have a dog that gives clear warning than a dog that bites with no warning. A dog that bites with no warning seems like a much more dangerous dog around children than a dog that gives clear warning. I mean, when has a growl ever hurt someone?

Having written that, kids come first. If one of my dogs growled at Chase they would not be allowed around my child ever again and I would re-home them. End of story.

There are situation where adults respect a dog's growl, manage the situation responsibly, and set the situation up for success so that children do not get hurt, and then there are situation where adults ignore warning signs, are neglectful in the management of the situation, and set the situation up for failure which end with children being hurt. Both situations may involve a growling dog, but one doesn't equal the other. Two very different scenarios.


I agree, I hope no children get hurt! And to the OP, don't put your children at risk!

Caleb, I may not have been extremely clear in last post. (It was a bit late...) When I mentioned, "respect the growl". I didn't mean allow the dog to growl or continue growling in instances that are not appropriate for such behavior. I meant if the dog is growling for a reason; it is a good warning to take caution. If a growl is ignored or not valued, then the dog can quite easily move on to something that WILL have meaning for us, humans, - a bite. As mentioned earlier, a growl is one of the very few ways a dog has of communicating to humans that we need to be careful. Unfortunately, most people don't understand and/or completely ignore a dog's more subtle signs of warning (i.e. body posturing, tense tail, raised pile, staring, etc.)

I completely understand your point with your dog. You know your dog best. If you know a bite will NOT just be a bite, I can see the need for extra caution. I certainly don't want anyone child or adult to come to harm. As Brad mentioned:

There are situation where adults respect a dog's growl, manage the situation responsibly, and set the situation up for success so that children do not get hurt, and then there are situation where adults ignore warning signs, are neglectful in the management of the situation, and set the situation up for failure which end with children (...or others) being hurt. Both situations may involve a growling dog, but one doesn't equal the other. Two very different scenarios.

In situations where there is no valid reason for a dog to growl, "Respecting the growl" does not mean to ignore it and let the growling continue. Of course the dog needs to be taught that that behavior is inappropriate will not be allowed to continue. However, until the dog is "taught" exactly what is inappropriate and/or shown another way, it will only continue with the same behavior. Therefore, initially the best thing to do is back off. Honor the dog's growl and figure out why it's growling. Do not continue to push a dog that is giving strong warning signs.

Every situation is different and there is always a reason for why a dog does something. Pushing forward into a situation that the dog is clearly upset about and harshly correcting a dog without taking into consideration "why" the dog is behaving in that way will likely end ugly. I agree that inappropriate growling should not be tolerated. A dog should not be pushing me around and tell me what I can and can't do. That is backwards.

There are ways of redefining expectations with a dog, such as changing it's lifestyle, as you mentioned, but unless the dog knows what it did wrong to incur such results, there is no lesson learned. Examine the situation, find the trigger, then find a way to teach an appropriate alternative as in Brad's example of walking by the bowl and adding MORE goodies to it, so he was no longer believed to be a threat.

However, in the end, if kids are in the house. Extra precautions should always be taken. Supervision should always be provided and the situations that are identified as triggers for the dog should not be allowed to occur in the presence of children. In addition, retraining a dog exhibiting behaviors like we are discussing (aggression) should NOT be done when in the presence of young ones.

I think we all agree with your previous statement :"Everyone is different, and I can just hope that this all ends well, not only for the dog, but the people involved."

One of the reasons, I enjoy this site so much is that everyone has an opinion and experiences that we can all learn from. I appreciate the opportunity to hear some different perspectives. I think the large majority on hear are able to diplomatically disagree without causing major offense - something else I appreciate. I have already learned a great deal from others on this site. (Sorry for the length of this post)

 

[Caleb]

I view yall's advise as very sound. Often times I tend to type as if I were talking to my drinking buddies, and exaggerate my opinions with a humorous state of mind. Sometimes I think that the tone can be misinterpreted through a post. No offense taken, and Ive actuallly quite enjoyed myself here. Not to continue deviateing from the OP, but Ive been on another forum where we discuss what camping gear is best....and you wouldnt believe how nasty it gets....violent! Its rediculous!

As for the original post...you obviously love the dog, plan to keep it, and arent going to abuse it. The previous posts are full of very helpful tid bits, with good places to start....for the record, dont break a chair over the dog's head! LOL That's my way of saying I would growl back.

 

[lilliesmomma]

Lillie is a big lover,gentle as can be. She has no food aggression issues either she loves her family but doesn't not like strangers at all. I guess that is because I don't have many visitors here, just family.