reasons for altering

[tlov]

So is it just intact male dogs that fixed dogs will try to pick a fight with or is it the same with intact females?

 

[maryl]

I've never noticed a change in temperament between intact and spayed bitches. I've kept both in my home at the same time. The attitude they showed before they were spayed is the same as after they were done. The only time I had trouble was when a younger bitch challenged a dominate bitch and then it didn't matter if they were spayed or not.

 

[Nitrojedi]

We couldn't take out intact DDB George to the dog park even tho he loved to go, it seemed every time we went some dumb ass neutered dog would attack him.....3 times in a row it happened so in the end we had to finally concede and stop taking him to one of his favorite places....Never once did george ever start a fight or act aggressive to any other dog, yet all the dumb bitches at the park blamed poor george for the altercations, wifey came home crying one time as the ladies had all ganged up on her blaming her for not neutering george.... George was peaceful and had a huge tolerance for dog aggression towards him and would only retaliate if he was really provoked.....Even when george bulldozed an offending dog we could easily call him off, he had no interest in hurting the other dog any more then what was needed .... Dogs can be really stupid too thank god George seemed to have a head on his shoulders about it, as a 75 lb overweight black lab cross has zero chance against him and he never resorted to any biting, he would simply trample a offending dog, literally run it over like a truck....

 

[TWW]

Sorry marke but your facts in the matter studies show are bias due to the fact, the large majority of your attacks are with dogs owner by less than adequate owners. Less responsible owners have also been shown to largely not neuter there dogs.

So one would lead to the other in statistics, and give a false conclusion.

Studies have shown early neutered males show a higher percentage of aggression.

 

[marke]

Sorry marke but your facts in the matter studies show are bias due to the fact, the large majority of your attacks are with dogs owner by less than adequate owners. Less responsible owners have also been shown to largely not neuter there dogs.

So one would lead to the other in statistics, and give a false conclusion.

Studies have shown early neutered males show a higher percentage of aggression.

"less responsible owners have been shown to largely not neuter dogs" ?????????? who has shown this ???????? the "studies" from the health department are statistics not studies ........ testosterone is a cause of aggression , isn't it ?????? to not recognize testosterone as a cause of aggression would be naïve at best ........science would tell you that early neutering will alleviate hormone caused aggression , where as late neutering will allow the hormone related behavior to become a habit ............everyone is entitled to an opinion , just some of them are wrong .........

 

[Smokeycat]

Early neutering also traps the brain in a juvenile state. The sex hormones are partially responsible for brain maturation during puberty. Also juveniles in general are more likely to use aggressive force, adults typically will think of pros and cons of using force. So while testosterone is responsible for some aggressive behavior, immaturity is responsible for more.

 

[NYDDB]

Early neutering also traps the brain in a juvenile state. The sex hormones are partially responsible for brain maturation during puberty. Also juveniles in general are more likely to use aggressive force, adults typically will think of pros and cons of using force. So while testosterone is responsible for some aggressive behavior, immaturity is responsible for more.

Very, very good point...

 

[marke]

Early neutering also traps the brain in a juvenile state. The sex hormones are partially responsible for brain maturation during puberty. Also juveniles in general are more likely to use aggressive force, adults typically will think of pros and cons of using force. So while testosterone is responsible for some aggressive behavior, immaturity is responsible for more.

I've never had a fight here between anything other that sexually mature dogs , prior to that their just arguments ........so you believe spayed and neutered dogs cannot learn as well as intact dogs ????of the millions of dog bites in the United States every year ,i'm pretty sure most , for whatever reason you like , are by sexually mature intact dogs and a very very minute portion are by puppies ...... and i'd have to believe most bites by puppies are accidental as a result of play , not aggression .......... this is honestly the first time I've ever heard of neutering being the cause of behavioral problems ....... I think the majority of surrendered dogs are surrendered for behavioral problems around the onset of puberty ???? [video=youtube;7yYI0SzX-o8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yYI0SzX-o8[/video]

 

[Smokeycat]

I've never had a fight here between anything other that sexually mature dogs , prior to that their just arguments ........so you believe spayed and neutered dogs cannot learn as well as intact dogs ????of the millions of dog bites in the United States every year ,i'm pretty sure most , for whatever reason you like , are by sexually mature intact dogs and a very very minute portion are by puppies ...... and i'd have to believe most bites by puppies are accidental as a result of play , not aggression .......... this is honestly the first time I've ever heard of neutering being the cause of behavioral problems ....... I think the majority of surrendered dogs are surrendered for behavioral problems around the onset of puberty ???? [video=youtube;7yYI0SzX-o8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yYI0SzX-o8[/video]

How on earth did you get altered dogs don't learn as well as intact dogs from what I said? If anything I'd say it would be the other way around. Juvenile brains tend to be more plastic (able to make connections) than mature brains.
What I was talking about was impulse control. It's one of the last parts of the brain to finish developing. If a dog is sterilized before the brain matures that part of the brain doesn't fully develop. A dog who lacks impulse control is one that is more likely to react with uncalled for force.
Aggression isn't just fighting and biting, it's also snapping, it can be shoving, pushing, & rough play depending on how the dogs (&/or people) are behaving.
Just based on the pair I have, the early neutered dog (done at 5.5 months old) is more "aggressive" than the intact dog. He is the one who will bite the other dog, he is the one who plays harder and tries to force other dogs to do things his way. In hindsight it's not surprising to me at all, at 4 years old he is still very much the puppy he was at 5 months old. The other dog did have behavioral changes as his brain matured. He is a different dog at 3 years old than he was as a 6 month old puppy.
And most dogs are given up once it becomes clear that the behaviors that were cute in the little puppy are a problem in the untrained dog. Both neutered and intact puppies are going to test the boundaries at some point and owners who weren't willing to do the proper early training are not likely going to want to fix the problems they made.

 

[marke]

if testosterone does anything it makes a dog more reactive , lessens its control ....... lack of control is the exact reason they castrate thoroughbreds ............. there are plenty of sch , ipo , and obedience titled neutered and spayed dogs ......sexually immature dogs are not the dangerous ones , when they hit puberty is when they get dangerous , if the dog is so inclined ......... i'm not an advocate of neutering your male dogs , but I do know if you have a reason to neuter your dog , and there are reasons , I don't believe you are harming your dog ........ I would wait until the dog was pretty much full grown , as it will affect how the dog looks , and their behavior , if you neuter them too young .........we'll just have to agree to disagree .........

 

[Smokeycat]

I would wait until the dog was pretty much full grown , as it will affect how the dog looks , and their behavior , if you neuter them too young .........we'll just have to agree to disagree .........

With this statement you just agreed with what I was saying. I never said that a neutered dog was going to be more aggressive than an intact dog. I said an EARLY neutered dog was more likely to have impulse control problems likely leading them to be more aggressive. If they are neutered after the brain has matured then yes I could see testosterone fueled aggression being a bigger cause. The problem in North America is that pet owners are told that to be responsible owners they need to sterilize their dogs before they are 6 months old (many are done even younger). Since most people believe that vet's always want what's best for their dog they don't question it, so a large portion of the canine pet population still have an immature brain.

 

[Th0r]

Doubt brain maturity has anything to do with hormones.
Let's just all stop pretending we know who's right and who's wrong.
Every study has a biased beginning and neither is 100% accurate.
Fix your dog if you want to and don't if you don't want to!
The general conclusion is to wait longer if it's a large breed!

 

[marke]

With this statement you just agreed with what I was saying. I never said that a neutered dog was going to be more aggressive than an intact dog. I said an EARLY neutered dog was more likely to have impulse control problems likely leading them to be more aggressive. If they are neutered after the brain has matured then yes I could see testosterone fueled aggression being a bigger cause. The problem in North America is that pet owners are told that to be responsible owners they need to sterilize their dogs before they are 6 months old (many are done even younger). Since most people believe that vet's always want what's best for their dog they don't question it, so a large portion of the canine pet population still have an immature brain.

early neutering leaves you with a less aggressive dog , the dog will be easier to train through puberty , it will have more self control as has been proven with castrated bulls and horses for centuries ...... if you have a vet who does not have the best interest of your dogs as a priority , you need a new one ........... i'm pretty sure I need my vets more than they need me ...... if a person were to go to a hospital with chest pains , and the doctor told them i'd like to do a stress test but it cost $5000 , the person would be appalled that the doctor was worried about the cost , even if the test came back normal ...... the same person takes his dog to the vet , the vet wants an x-ray and blood workup , about $400-500 , the person is appalled again thinking the vet is just after his money .......... I just had a pup diagnosed with a grade 3-4 heart murmur , I took him to a heart guy ,asked to do an echo to see what it was , vet told me it sounded like sas , save my money , bring him back at a year unless he shows symptoms ....those are the vets I have known my entire life , I've seen some make some stupid mistakes , who doesn't ?????

Doubt brain maturity has anything to do with hormones.
Let's just all stop pretending we know who's right and who's wrong.
Every study has a biased beginning and neither is 100% accurate.
Fix your dog if you want to and don't if you don't want to!
The general conclusion is to wait longer if it's a large breed!

personally I can't believe a study is needed to see sexually mature intact male dogs are the most aggressive type of dog ......and removing sex hormones lessens aggression , and sex related behavior problems ....... kinda like needing a psychologist to determine if Jeffery damer was nuts or not .........some things are just obvious.........I haven't seen anything that makes torn cruciates and higher cancer rates obvious to me ..........

 

[Rugers-Kris]

Actually, Marke early neutering can be detrimental to dogs especially the giants. Dogs DO stay immature if neutered prior to maturing AND there is no proof that intact males are more aggressive. The reality is that much depends on the dogs temperament, the owners training, socialization, etc. Also, there are many studies to show that neutered males are more susceptible to many issues including cancer (aside from Testicular cancer, of course), you can do a search on this forum and find a lot of that research easy enough.

I have said it before and I will say it again...It is a personal decision. My 2 year old Male intact Great Dane has never met a stranger and doesn't have an ounce of aggression in him whatsoever. He loves all people and animals and has been this way since he was just a baby. My 3 year English Mastiff is not stranger friendly but loves other animals. He is a protector, just who he is, however, he is very controlled....no lunging, biting, acting out......Very mature and calm boy.

Neutering either of them would not change who them are nor do I care to change them. Every dog is different but no one is talking about how training and socialization make the biggest difference of all. I have met just as many aggressive neutered dogs as aggressive intact dogs as well as friendly ones. If you prefer to neuter, fantastic, if you prefer not to, fantastic BUT if you are using neutering to correct or avoid behavioral issues, you are lazy.

The research is out there, however, to show the risks to a neutered dog.

I have two intact male dogs that live in harmony in a house together and I have NEVER had a single fuss between them. Neither of my dogs have ever attacked anyone. They also go to work with me everyday and anywhere else I can take them so they are very socialized and I spent a lot of time training them and teaching them what was acceptable and not acceptable which would have had to be done if I neutered them or not. The only difference between my boys and neutered dogs is that mine mark all over the yard by lifting their leg and most neutered dogs do not.

To the OP. I think it is great that you are asking for info from EXPERIENCED owners of intact dogs, it is a good idea but in the end, it really is a personal decision that you will have to be comfortable with. I wish you luck.

 

[marke]

they remain sexually immature forever , that's why they are neutered ........... to think they are somehow mentally developmentally retarded is just throwing crap at the wall to see if it sticks .......... as far as an adequate study to come to the conclusion it is detrimental orthopedically , or in any other way there is none I've seen .... there is centuries of anecdotal evidence to the contrary that everybody sees ...........testosterone is the reason men die younger than women .........they paid almost $100,000 for a gelded(neutered) thoroughbred called funny cide , they obviously don't believe being neutered is detrimental, he posted one of the fastest Kentucky derbies ever , I believe the largest margin of victory ever in the Preakness , 3rd in the Belmont ...... mine that bird in the Kentucky derby ran down the best thoroughbreds in the world from what I believe was 30 lengths back , one of the most physically impressive feats I've ever seen ......... horses are big fast growing animals , there have been a number of great quarter horses that were also gelded ...... they have been castrating domestic animals for more than a thousand years ............as far as your dogs getting along , it happens . as far as dogs one day not getting along , it happens too....... I've raised a whole lot of littermates together for their lives , same exact raising , same exact experiences , fed the same , exercised the same ...... that's a "study" ......jmo......

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I am not sure why you are going off on the whole horse thing and I have no idea who "they" is BUT back to the neuter versus intact DOGS, if you haven't seen the research, then you haven't looked obviously. If your preference is to neuter then so be it...it is a personal choice but to make up facts to make any disagreeing opinion seem "wrong" is ridiculous. I raised Pit Bulls for many years prior to having the two I have now and I always had a minimum of 2 intact males in my home at a time and never had a single problem. all of your horse theory but you don't respond to training or socialization?

I don't need to right and in the end the OP should do whatever they are comfortable which is the only reason I am bothering to dispel some of your babble. I want the OP to look further. To research what you are saying (if they can figure out what that is) as well as researching everything the rest of us are saying so they can make an informed decision that best suit them and their dog.

 

[babyjoemurphy]

This thread is getting a little confusing for someone trying to figure out what's right for their dog.
I don't remember this being about horses either.
It's pretty simple. Do your research on DOGS because let's face it they are they ones we take into public places. I can tell you the last time I seen a horse in a dog park or a pet store......NEVER
Training is key for the out come of your K9 no matter what the breed. Socialization, your ability to stay calm and confident and training all are key to a well rounded pet.
Someone coming on this forum and trying to read this thread will discourge them and leave them possible making a confused decisions.
People come here because WE are the knowledge to the mastiff breed. You want horses go find a horse forum

If you can't get a handle on your dog call in the pros. Dogs do not come free of charge after you have purchased them.
If all else fails then take the next step. Don't jump on the neutering ban wagon because "they" say. And this is coming from someone who has an altered male.

Back to OP, it comes down to looking at both sides of the coin. Research till you can't anymore. The choice ultimately is yours but don't think altering is magic. If your dog is misbehaving before he goes under he isn't gonna wake up ALL fixed. Your still gonna need to put time and money into the issues.


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[maryl]

Hi, I just thought I would comment on some of the threads above. I don't understand why we are talking about horses. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Horses are prey animals and dogs are predators. They must be trained and handled much differently. Also if you don't think that testosterone has any effect on the male brain, you haven't been around enough intact dogs. I have never had to alter any of my males (newfys) but I have never had a mastiff before. Although I hadn't planned on altering him, I thought I would ask for the reasons that some of the people on this forum had for neutering. I wanted to learn. And I have, lots of things to think about. Thankyou.

 

[babyjoemurphy]

Hi, I just thought I would comment on some of the threads above. I don't understand why we are talking about horses. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Horses are prey animals and dogs are predators. They must be trained and handled much differently. Also if you don't think that testosterone has any effect on the male brain, you haven't been around enough intact dogs. I have never had to alter any of my males (newfys) but I have never had a mastiff before. Although I hadn't planned on altering him, I thought I would ask for the reasons that some of the people on this forum had for neutering. I wanted to learn. And I have, lots of things to think about. Thankyou.

There is alot of great info on here. Maybe search here for another thread. I have read some of the other threads on neutering from amazing knoledgable long time mastiff owners.
Like I had posted pages ago. I had a vet that was happy to know I wasn't even thinking of altering till at least 18 mos. Some vets don't even know the difference between Giant and toy breeds. Dogs are dogs are dogs.
Good luck


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[marke]

i'm not sure how it comes across in writing , but i'm not "going off" on anyone ....... just giving my take , if you can refute my babble with some factual logic , i am open minded , i'm just careful what i let in , especially off the internet .........i saw on the news this morning a study says drinking orange juice will cause skin cancer ......another would be , most people that drink diet soft drinks are overweight , therefore diet soft drinks must cause obesity .........

i would guess the "studies" you refer to is the uc davis one ??? where they looked at the medical records ,along with the recall of owners and veterinarians to fill in the gaps, as to conditions of the 759 dogs of various ages , owners , and upbringings ...where nearly twice as many of the 759 dogs were desexed as were intact , ironically in real life nearly twice as many dogs are intact as desexed .. or possibly the one from the university of georgia , where they looked at 40,000 death records , and concluded desexed dogs were more prone to cancers but they lived longer ????

as far as horses , if you can't make the leap of logic then i guess it is meaningless , personally i wonder why this condition wouldn't hold true for other animals ........ physiologically their bones grow exactly as your dogs or yours do ...... their bones are anatomically identical , they grow the same , they are treated the same , made from the same chemicals ...horses even gait the same as dogs ... the same hormone testosterone used to treat your dog is exactley the same one used to treat horses or people ............ puberty happens in any animal i know of ???? they use rats , mice , pigs .....to study human medicine .......

here's some babble i ran across from DVM 360 about the georgia study

Studies call neutering of pets into question

Comparatively, the study out of the University of Georgia, also published in PLOS ONE, looked at a sample of more than 40,000 canine death records to determine the effect sterilization may have on both lifespan and cause of death, while controlling for the effects of age. The results showed that while sterilization increased the lifespan of dogs, it also increased the risk of death from cancer or autoimmune diseases. However, researchers recognized that a direct link between sterilization and the study outcomes could not be made, as a number of unknown factors, including the age at which the animal was sterilized, potentially added bias to the results.
Neuter or not?
Given the results of these studies, some veterinarians are wondering if they should alter their message promoting spaying and neutering of dogs and cats. Karen Overall, VMD, PhD, DACVB, a well-known author and speaker on behavioral medicine, was immediately concerned upon seeing the results of the UC Davis study. "Now everybody is going to stop neutering their dogs," she thought.
But after reviewing the study results and consulting with colleagues about it, Overall isn't wavering in recommending spaying and neutering to pet owners. She will, however, continue to emphasize the importance of treating each pet as an individual case.
"If an animal is going to go out and get into fights because it's intact, that case requires intervention. That animal is going to roam and fight and get hit by a car. We've done that animal no favors by not neutering it," she says. "On the other hand, if that animal doesn't display any of those behaviors, then we should go through the relative risks and medical concerns of not neutering with the owner."