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Proposed Diet:

monkeys23

Member
Also I'm betting her issues are caused by the imbalanced diet, but could also be environmental allergies.

A properly balanced PMR diet with proper transition will solve this better than a good grain free kibble will. I speak as someone with dogs who can't handle any grains, even rice, and used to feed high quality grain free kibble.

Most vets will not support raw because of the lack of good nutrition education they get in vet school. Unless they have a passion for truly digging into what dog really need.... odds are they won't support you. Especially because of the number of people who feed raw very horribly wrong... like doing only chicken quarters or only raw hamburger...

I feel very very lucky that I have a vet who is well educated and supports my decision.
 

Marrowshard

Well-Known Member
I think maybe I'm confusing some people.

I know "plain" chicken and rice isn't a full raw diet. I know that it's not technically balanced. I get that more variety in her diet will provide lots of nutrients and a broader range of flavors. What i'm saying though, or trying to, is that nailing down her allergy necessitates a temporarily bland and unexciting diet. Chicken quarter + rice isn't intended to be a day-to-day-for-the-rest-of-her-life thing, it's intended to isolate her allergens.

I really do read all the links people post to me, and there are some great suggestions for making a balanced homemade diet that I'll definitely be taking into consideration when developing a permanent meal plan for her.

Right now, though, she's got enormous itchy hives all over her face from the chicken/rice experiment which indicates to me she's allergic to one or more of the components, which is why we're trying a few other things. I would like to use a raw diet, but if she's going to be allergic to all or most common proteins, and it leaves me trying to find raw bison or elk meat for dog food, then it's not economically feasible.

The recipes on the websites look great, but they're including beef, chicken, and other animal organs from common sources. If she's allergic to chicken like she seems to be, that's not terribly helpful.

Like I said, I do read through all the links and posts, but until we can figure out what she's allergic to it's not advisable to throw common proteins at her.

~Marrow
 

Kandie

Well-Known Member
This diet looks very unbalanced to be and very limited variety wise. Cut out the rice alltogether for starters. Its useless filler, nothing more.

Chicken quarters are great for transition, but they (and eggs) should only be a small portion of the total diet once you are transitioned.

The goal after full transition should be 80% muscle meats 10% organ meats (5% of that liver) and 10% bone in the form of RMB's ideally (like chicken Q's or turkey necks, etc.)... these are only rough guidelines, some dogs need more bone in.

Lily I have to keep right at 10% bone... anymore than that and she gets chalky crumbly poo... a sure sign of too much bone!
Scout the foster gets more bone in stuff because she can't handle as many rich boneless meals as Lily can... so she gets a little more RMB's and less rich bonesless meals.

Red meats are very nutritional. I feed a lot of beef heart, beef tongue, deer and elk meat, etc. for our boneless meals. Fish is also a good addition, especially long chain Omega 3 rich fish like Sardine and Mackeral. I feed a meal of whole frozen sardines once a week as part of their overall diet. I shoot for balance over the entire week and their meals are planned with that in mind obviously.
Green tripe is another good addition. www.greentripe.com is a great source if you are out west. I love their mix that includes trachea/gullet with the green tripe.... great source of natural joint support and good digestive enzymes! And yes green tripe, trachea, and gullet all count in the muscle meat category...

I very strongly suggest you check out this site and its guidelines for transitioning your dog properly onto prey model raw: http://preymodelraw.com/
I also suggest you pick up Tom Lonsdale's books: "What Works" and "Raw Meaty Bones"... they are probably the best raw feeding books out there.

Dogs don't need anything beyond the proper variety of meat/RMBs/organs, but if you feel you need to feed veggies, fruits, and root veggies like sweet potato/carrot... puree the veggies/fruits and any root veggies/starchy things need to be cooked and mashed for them to get anything out of it at all. Dog's digestive systems cannot breakdown the cellular structure of the plant matter otherwise. It just passes through looking exactly the same.

I do give my dogs veggies and fruits and treats while I'm prepping my own food because they enjoy eating them.... its a treat though and not part of the balanced PMR diet they eat on a daily basis. ;)

Another good site for research: http://www.rawfed.com/myths/

Do your research and if you are going to feed raw do it right. Don't screw up your dog's health by an improperly researched diet. If you do it right there is absolutely nothing better!! I researched for years before actually taking the plunge and I'm kicking myself for not doing it earlier. Its not that hard, but you MUST do it right!!!

---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------

Also I'm betting her issues are caused by the imbalanced diet, but could also be environmental allergies.

A properly balanced PMR diet with proper transition will solve this better than a good grain free kibble will. I speak as someone with dogs who can't handle any grains, even rice, and used to feed high quality grain free kibble.

Most vets will not support raw because of the lack of good nutrition education they get in vet school. Unless they have a passion for truly digging into what dog really need.... odds are they won't support you. Especially because of the number of people who feed raw very horribly wrong... like doing only chicken quarters or only raw hamburger...

I feel very very lucky that I have a vet who is well educated and supports my decision.

Very great info!!
I started my dog on raw and it is GREAT! He is doing great with the variety. I havent added fish yet because I wasn't quite sure of which kind, but you just pointed out sardines and mackeral, which I saw before on a rmb website. So I will start to look for Fresh sardines and/or mackeral. He had his first taste of lamb breast and was in heaven :) I know some people add 1 egg every other day or so, I haven't started that either. I'm comfortable with his menu as is. And thanks for the tip about the chalky poop! Didn't know that.

---------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 PM ----------

Right now, though, she's got enormous itchy hives all over her face from the chicken/rice experiment which indicates to me she's allergic to one or more of the components, which is why we're trying a few other things.

~Marrow

I understand you are trying establish a well balanced meal plan by figuring out First what her allergies could be. Since she is breaking out from a chicken/rice combo, have you tried to feed just chicken? Without the rice?
I hope everything works out for your girl :)
 

Marrowshard

Well-Known Member
We have NOT yet tried straight chicken, since it was the main ingredient in the original kibble we were feeding her it seemed like an instant "out" once she pulled allergies after the first raw attempt. That being said, we do have a pile of frozen chicken that never made it to her dish, so we may try that next. I had wanted to stay with the venison/rice kibble for at least a week, but given the state of her skin I'm not sure that's a good plan.

~Marrow
 

Marrowshard

Well-Known Member
Came home (late) last night after work, Ebony stood up in her kennel to greet me as usual. I let her out for a little face time and it sounded like she was having trouble breathing. She wasn't stressing out over it, it just sounded noisier than usual (and we're used to her usual range of pig-snuffles, snoring, sighing, etc.) and slightly liquidy, like a kid with a stuffy nose. I also noticed she had hives on her eyelids and that the sclera was pinkish instead of white.

To recap, we had switched from kibble to raw chicken/egg/rice, which caused a reaction so we went venison/rice kibble and the reaction continued (even getting stronger) which makes me strongly suspect the rice. She's still taking her antibiotics and we're giving her Benedryl to help ease the symptoms. As of this morning, she's going to get raw venison and cooked potato. We haven't got enough venison in the freezer to keep it up all year, but if she's reacting to the rice this should clear her up a bit. Long term, I'm now looking into feeding fish and potato (plain or sweet, haven't decided yet). I seriously doubt her old owners would have given her fish, so hopefully it'll be "alien" enough not to cause a reaction at all.

She's clearly unhappy and itchy these days, we're trying our best to make it stop without resorting to steroids. If the hives haven't gone down by Monday, I'm calling the vet. Or would it take longer for us to see a change?

~Marrow
 

Kandie

Well-Known Member
Between all the food changes, how long are you waiting? Like how long was she eating chicken/rice? How long was she eating venison/rice kibble? And now you are giving her venison/ potato? I would stick with one kind of food for about two weeks before ruling it out or changing it.
 

Marrowshard

Well-Known Member
She was on the raw chicken/rice thing about a week, and we noticed pea-sized bright red hives after about 3 days so we took her in to the vet at week's end and she recommended switching to a different food right away. She's been on the venison/rice kibble a week as well, and as I said the hives/swellings are a lot worse and she's having breathing issues. I understand the need to give a new diet a chance to work, but with such a drastic drop in her health I'm concerned that giving it another week will push her too far. Her skin from the shoulders forward is literally covered in hives; her lips, eyes, inside her ears, all over her neck, the top of her head, the insides of her front legs etc. so it's not just a light reaction. She's still eating/drinking/pottying as usual, but I can't stand to see her suffer like this. Her skin got 10 times worse when we went from our kibble to the first raw chicken/rice diet and has declined since then and rice is the common denominator.

~Marrow
 

Marrowshard

Well-Known Member
Was going to use raw venison (since the kibble already has venison, thought it might work best), and was thinking I'd add potato for two reasons: 1) it's a kibble additive that's easy to find, so if full raw doesn't work out, we'll know she's good with potatoes and 2) My husband and I live on venison all year, and the freezer's a bit low. We can't feed her straight raw venison and still have enough to last us until November. Potatoes are also pretty bland and they're a root (okay, tuber) rather than a grain so if grains in general are a trigger then potatoes might be a solution. Not saying I'm not open to other veggies, but i would like to have at least one non-meat item in her diet for now.

~Marrow
 

Dogue

Well-Known Member
Wow very informative! I know this sounds stupid but do you need to cook the raw foods (e.g., beef hearts, GreenTripe products, etc.)? And what about the bones (chicken quarters), do you cut them up?
 

Kandie

Well-Known Member
Wow very informative! I know this sounds stupid but do you need to cook the raw foods (e.g., beef hearts, GreenTripe products, etc.)? And what about the bones (chicken quarters), do you cut them up?

Lol I asked the same exact question when I started raw. I couldnt wrap my brain around the "raw" part. Raw does mean raw. No cooking. I don't cut up anything. But if you are switching your dog from kibble to raw meat, watch him/her very carefully as they may not chew. I started feeding Kapone partially frozen meats so he would have no choice but to chew it and he is doing great. I don't add supplements, fruits, veggies or grain. Just meat and organs. Hope that helped
 

Dogue

Well-Known Member
Thanks Kandie. What about adding "raw" to kibble instead of caned food? I add 1/2 a can to two sccops of kibble. I'd rather add "raw."
 

Kandie

Well-Known Member
Thanks Kandie. What about adding "raw" to kibble instead of caned food? I add 1/2 a can to two sccops of kibble. I'd rather add "raw."

You are very welcome. I wouldn't suggest mixing the two together. And if you plan on going raw, my breeder advises to fast the dog for 24 hours seeing as kibble digests slower than raw.

dogfoodanalysis.com can help you choosing the best kibble for your dog. It shouldn't contain grain, at all. and meat (not meat-by-product) should be listed as the first ingredient.

this is the yahoo group I am in. It can answer all your raw questions.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding

this one is Extremely helpful to newbies
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

I hope that helps!
 

Dogue

Well-Known Member
Very helpful Kandie. I'm changing Miel's diet from Diamond Lamb and Rice to Nature's Domain (100% grain free) kibble (salmon meal and sweet potatoe). I did some research and it seems like a descent kibble and also very economical. Costco now sells it. What are your thoughts on Nature's Domain? I 'm going to try to feed Miel raw once a week and take it from there. Another silly question but are dogs susceptable to salmonella when eatting raw chicken? Thanks!
 

Kandie

Well-Known Member
I havent heard of Nature's domaine, so I have no opinion of it. Sorry. I hope the raw goes well :)
The samonella question was addressed in the rawlearning link. Dog's stomaches (spelling?) are different from humans and can digest more bacteria than we can. Raw chicken will be fine :) (I asked the same question before I started)
Marrow, how is Ebony doing??
 

Marrowshard

Well-Known Member
Thanks for asking ... she had a vet appointment this morning after we noticed a rapid increase in both size and number of swellings. She developed hives on her eyelids and her ears had swollen almost shut.

The vet (went with a different one this time) said in rare cases dogs can be severely allergic to the antibiotics we were giving her (Cephalexin) and that it looked like she was the "rare one". She got a 1-2 shot of an antihistamine and a steroid to provide immediate relief, and we were given 3 (!) different pills to give her: a corticosteroid, an antibiotic (different family than previous), and a stronger antihistamine since the Benadryl wasn't working.

The vet tried to push Science Diet Z/D, but I'd read the package beforehand and it's got corn and other grains in it. Vet said they were so finely processed it wouldn't aggravate a grain allergy, but I told her I was sticking with the raw venison/potato for now if only for the sake of consistency. She seems to be eating it well and her poops are pretty normal (no diarrhea like with the raw chicken). The vet admitted she didn't know much about raw diets, but seemed comfortable with letting me feed as I wished, especially when I said we hunted/butchered our own and it was our food too, so it was definitely safe (not just scraps or "off" meat). She mentioned a holistic food store in the Cities that she knows stocks raw meat for pet food, so I might have to check that out when I get the time. We've got enough venison in the freezer to keep this up for a couple of weeks then we're going to get pretty low. I bought some fish for her in the event we need to switch things up a bit. Vet also recommend TotW and Blue Buffalo if we wanted to use kibble.

Since her vet visit this morning, she's pretty much slept because of the antihistamine. Her breathing is a lot clearer (vet took a listen, said it was noisy breathing but she didn't appear to be struggling at all) and her sclera have cleared up. She's still all lumpy, but we were told it could take 24-48 hours for us to really see a drastic reduction in the hives.

So we're going to keep her on the venison/potato for a bit, using fish/potato as needed, and give her her pills. Hopefully it'll at least get her back to "normal" long enough for us to get her diet straightened out.

~Marrow
 

Kandie

Well-Known Member
I'm glad you were able to figure out exactly what the hives were from. i know they go away soon. :( Poor girl. Really weird how she had the rare reaction!
 

Marrowshard

Well-Known Member
We're just hoping that's what it was. She had a reaction to something (probably) food-based before her skin went all crazy, so we still have to try and work around that. Right now, it looks like it's rice but until the bad drug reaction goes away it'll be really hard to tell. By the time i'd left for work this afternoon her breathing had already quieted down a lot and she was sleeping wherever she happened to fall LOL. I had to physically pull her up off the floor to go outside to potty. She wasn't feeling ill, she was just out that hard and didn't want to have to move! Hopefully it clears up quickly ... I feel so bad for her with the hives and there's not really very much I can do besides rub her face for her and make sure she's got a squishy pillow to sleep on!

~Marrow