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Prong collar

Sheila Braund

Well-Known Member
Ok guys my trainer suggested for me to use a prong collar. Just not sure about it myself. What's the pro and cons.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
What problem are you having that your trainer suggested it? What methods did the trainer try that haven't worked?
 

Sheila Braund

Well-Known Member
I'm having issues controlling her on a leash in classes. And now with Bella into her 2nd heat she's aggressive towards the other dogs in the beginning of the class by the end of the class she wants to play with them. All the other pups in class are under a year old and of corse Bella out weighs them by 80 lbs or more.
I do have a very bad back, but that's ok. I don't care that she's killing my back while we're learning together.... once we've got it I know she won't be such a strain on my back.
We're using positive training....treats and practice .
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
So she's being reactive and over stimulated? Was she like this when she wasn't in heat? How is her loose leash walking when not in class? How is her reactivity when not in class?
 

Sheila Braund

Well-Known Member
When we're walking at the office in the city she's very good, if she pulls I just tell her " with me". And she stops pulling. In class big difference. Other dogs are a distraction for sure. Normally she is socialized with another mastiff off leash at our homes and she's great. I don't think I could control her on leash with the other mastiff around. Only because I've never leash her around this mastiff. I think with practise she would get it.
So what's the deal with these prong collars they do look painful. I don't want to use pain to control my girl. That's just wrong.
 

Sheila Braund

Well-Known Member
So she's being reactive and over stimulated? Was she like this when she wasn't in heat? How is her loose leash walking when not in class? How is her reactivity when not in class?

Yes she was a bit like this before the heat. Much more the " I don't want to " from her and a lot more fear aggression.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
The one problem my daughter's assertive 1 year old boxer service dog in training has is reactivity to other dogs. Not that he wants to fight them, but he's a very easily aroused dog and he gets so excited at the other dogs in class that he can be very unruly when in proximity to other dogs. And he's rude, lol. It's frustrating, I know. I really like the facility we use. The instructor works with you individually on problem behaviors. Mr. Man continues to take obedience classes and focus classes. Not because he needs to work on the basic stuff, but because it gives them a chance to work on him making good choices and choosing to focus on his handler. There are techniques for this and my daughter would probably be a good one to tell you exactly what they've been doing. I, personally, would not use a prong for this yet. Not without trying other focus and engagement exercises first. Does your facility offer any classes like that? Reactive dog classes maybe?

A prong is not my first choice ever. I have them. I have used them in the past. I know many people that use them. The biggest problem, in my opinion, is that far too many people use the prong and see immediate results, but even years later the second the collar comes off the dog is back to doing what it was doing before. That tells me that the dog is collar smart rather than reliably trained. Or that they're reliably trained that they must behave only when they have the prong on. If the dog only behaves and pays attention when the prong is on, then they really haven't learned what you wanted them to learn. Which is to pay attention to you always, even if they have no gear at all on. Sometimes I feel that a prong is a tool for a lazy trainer. Not always, but sometimes. It does get immediate results. Why? Well, because it's uncomfortable. And ultimately the people that use a prong for the life of their dog haven't really achieved a well trained dog if they misbehave when the collar comes off. They're achieved management. Many people are fine with that and that's fine with me. I want more than management for my dogs and that's fine too.

Is the prong painful? That depends. It depends on the brand of collar and how it's used. If you're going to get one, get only Herm Sprenger. Make sure you know how to fit it. Leerburg has a good article and video on this. Used properly the prong should not cause pain. It does, however, cause discomfort when a correction is applied - either a passive correction or an intentional correction. Intentional corrections done by inexperienced people are definitely painful. Nobody should be jerking on the collars. My kid works in an emergency clinic as well as at the shelter. You'd be surprised how many dogs come in with neck injuries from prongs. Sometimes because of too harsh corrections (and cheap collars) and sometimes because people have been idiots and left the collar on the dog when they aren't actively training. Or tied them out with a prong on. That being said, used correctly the discomfort should be minimal. Much less than a choke and often much less than a flat buckle on a dog that pulls relentlessly. I have tried a prong on myself. It is much less painful that a choke. But yes, it's definitely uncomfortable when a correction is applied.

There are other tools you can try. Which ones might work best for you depends a lot on what exactly she's doing. Is she lunging? Does she lunge without warning? Or is she just pulling? I'm not a fan of head harnesses for dogs that lunge. That can cause neck injuries. But if she's not a lunger then I would perhaps try a Freedom Harness and possibly a Perfect Pace head halter. Used together. That all being said ... you have a bad back. It may be that the safest option for YOU is a prong, depending how she reacts to it. Ella and Roy are very soft dogs and a prong is much too harsh for them. Remember that the dog decides what's aversive. Some dogs will find a head halter super aversive and shut down. Some dogs will show increased reactivity and aggression when using a prong. Some dogs are fine with whatever you use. All training is individual to the dog.

Ultimately it's your choice. I can almost guarantee you'd see immediate results with a prong, but it will be because it's punitive rather than because you've actually changed the emotional state of the dog. That's not really training, imo, it's management. And that's just fine if you're okay with that. It is possible to use a prong, train the behaviors you want, and transition away from it. That really should be the ultimate goal for any training tool be it a prong, a no-pull harness, a head halter, or any other tool. I don't count a leash and flat collar as a tool here because most cities have leash laws, so there is no choice.
 

Sheila Braund

Well-Known Member
The one problem my daughter's assertive 1 year old boxer service dog in training has is reactivity to other dogs. Not that he wants to fight them, but he's a very easily aroused dog and he gets so excited at the other dogs in class that he can be very unruly when in proximity to other dogs. And he's rude, lol. It's frustrating, I know. I really like the facility we use. The instructor works with you individually on problem behaviors. Mr. Man continues to take obedience classes and focus classes. Not because he needs to work on the basic stuff, but because it gives them a chance to work on him making good choices and choosing to focus on his handler. There are techniques for this and my daughter would probably be a good one to tell you exactly what they've been doing. I, personally, would not use a prong for this yet. Not without trying other focus and engagement exercises first. Does your facility offer any classes like that? Reactive dog classes maybe?

A prong is not my first choice ever. I have them. I have used them in the past. I know many people that use them. The biggest problem, in my opinion, is that far too many people use the prong and see immediate results, but even years later the second the collar comes off the dog is back to doing what it was doing before. That tells me that the dog is collar smart rather than reliably trained. Or that they're reliably trained that they must behave only when they have the prong on. If the dog only behaves and pays attention when the prong is on, then they really haven't learned what you wanted them to learn. Which is to pay attention to you always, even if they have no gear at all on. Sometimes I feel that a prong is a tool for a lazy trainer. Not always, but sometimes. It does get immediate results. Why? Well, because it's uncomfortable. And ultimately the people that use a prong for the life of their dog haven't really achieved a well trained dog if they misbehave when the collar comes off. They're achieved management. Many people are fine with that and that's fine with me. I want more than management for my dogs and that's fine too.

Is the prong painful? That depends. It depends on the brand of collar and how it's used. If you're going to get one, get only Herm Sprenger. Make sure you know how to fit it. Leerburg has a good article and video on this. Used properly the prong should not cause pain. It does, however, cause discomfort when a correction is applied - either a passive correction or an intentional correction. Intentional corrections done by inexperienced people are definitely painful. Nobody should be jerking on the collars. My kid works in an emergency clinic as well as at the shelter. You'd be surprised how many dogs come in with neck injuries from prongs. Sometimes because of too harsh corrections (and cheap collars) and sometimes because people have been idiots and left the collar on the dog when they aren't actively training. Or tied them out with a prong on. That being said, used correctly the discomfort should be minimal. Much less than a choke and often much less than a flat buckle on a dog that pulls relentlessly. I have tried a prong on myself. It is much less painful that a choke. But yes, it's definitely uncomfortable when a correction is applied.

There are other tools you can try. Which ones might work best for you depends a lot on what exactly she's doing. Is she lunging? Does she lunge without warning? Or is she just pulling? I'm not a fan of head harnesses for dogs that lunge. That can cause neck injuries. But if she's not a lunger then I would perhaps try a Freedom Harness and possibly a Perfect Pace head halter. Used together. That all being said ... you have a bad back. It may be that the safest option for YOU is a prong, depending how she reacts to it. Ella and Roy are very soft dogs and a prong is much too harsh for them. Remember that the dog decides what's aversive. Some dogs will find a head halter super aversive and shut down. Some dogs will show increased reactivity and aggression when using a prong. Some dogs are fine with whatever you use. All training is individual to the dog.

Ultimately it's your choice. I can almost guarantee you'd see immediate results with a prong, but it will be because it's punitive rather than because you've actually changed the emotional state of the dog. That's not really training, imo, it's management. And that's just fine if you're okay with that. It is possible to use a prong, train the behaviors you want, and transition away from it. That really should be the ultimate goal for any training tool be it a prong, a no-pull harness, a head halter, or any other tool. I don't count a leash and flat collar as a tool here because most cities have leash laws, so there is no choice.

Boxer girl, thank you so much for answering me and telling me about the prong.... I have only read a part of your reply.... as I was heading into the office... I got to the part about injuries .... and seen your reference to a video..... I had just put the collar on her to bring her into the city with me... I took it off as soon as I seen about the injuries.... I will not be putting it back on her until I've had a chance to review this video ... and OMG who would be such an idiot to put these collars on any dog unsupervised and freaken tie them up on that collar!! I may not be educated on these collars enough or not at all until now.... but I would never tie a dog up on these collars!!!! WOW just WOW!!!

I never leave my dogs in a collar when I'm not there to watch them. thats just me I know there is collars you can leave on them but I prefer not to collar them until we are leaving the house.

Again Boxer girl Thank you!!

It kinda pisses me off that my trainer would hand me one of these collars as Im leaving and tell me to use it without any training!
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
It can be a good tool, used properly. And the injuries aren't common if the collar is fitted and used correctly. The problem is that it's a quick fix and available to anyone and too many people like to yank and crank with them. The same thing can be said for chokes and head harnesses causing injuries of a different kind, although I've not heard of anyone tying their dog up with a head harness on. I don't think a prong is a tool that is necessary for everyone or for every dog, and certainly not before trying other methods. Unless ... and here's a big unless ... you need it to prevent injury to yourself. If you do, because of your bad back, then I'd much rather see you correctly using a prong than to put yourself at risk. And your dog at risk, by default. Because if she takes you down and you lose control of her you have a whole new bag of problems. Just do your research and do what you think is right for you and your dog. I don't think you would be a person to use a prong incorrectly.

Just as an aside ... I found it really ridiculous when a relative was advised to put their 12 week old Rott puppy on a prong. The owner is a big guy and well over 6 feet tall. He said he needed the prong because puppy was dragging him down the block. I don't think young pups should ever be on a prong. I feel very strongly about this. If you can't find a motivational method for your 3 month old pup, then you have a problem, not the dog.
 

Sheila Braund

Well-Known Member
Ok first ... wheres the hug button!

Your so right! I think if I decide to use this prong collar it will be only when she's in a heat and going to places with other dogs. Just as a safety thing. So far I have watched 5 videos on this. I can see how it can be a very good tool when needed and used properly. I also see how dangerous it can be too. When I've trained my dogs in the past the harshest thing I've ever do to my dogs is an " ssshhhh ssshhh" sound. They get to know I don't like something and I get their full attention right away. This obedience classes is new to me. I've always did very well at training my dogs with my positive structure and distracting methods when their doing something I don't want. My dad and mom use to breed and raise shepherds for RMCP back in the 60's. They never every raised a hand or newspaper or anything to their dogs. This is the same method I use. The only reason I signed up for classes for Bella was for my husband and for Bella to socialize more with other dogs. We believe and practice training out of respect and love never ever fear. Now I've see these prong video where the trainer put the prong part on the back of the dogs neck..... just has me thinking.... I really need to watch more videos ;)
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Just remember that socialization doesn't mean your dog has to meet every single dog or person. Socialization is really about exposing your dog to all sorts of things, people, and animals. They don't have to interact with them. What you really want is for these things to be unimportant. Take a look at LAT and BAT training. I posted links somewhere. Done properly it really does help with reactivity. You may not really need it, but you just may find something useful in the exercises.
 

scorning

Well-Known Member
I agree with Boxegirl, I've used prongs extensively in the past for my Great Danes, but try not to sure them now. I don't believe that a properly used prong collar is painful or harmful, I would just prefer to use different methods to build a relationship with my dog. That being said, my current Dane uses a prong collar when we are in high density situations like when I take him to my dog friendly work or when we go to the vet. We use a martingale collar when I know I have the space and the time to better manage the environment, like regular walk, training class, or dog trials.
 

Sheila Braund

Well-Known Member
Hi guys and wow just stopped a the pet store and yes wasn't impressed.

The person showing me the collars says to me " you want to make sure its big enough so they feel the pinch. I educated him on that. Then he tells me he has sold many like that with giving that advise.... I said your one of the causes that these dogs end up in emergency. I've watched videos called my vet ... well text my vet .... all saying these are not meant to hurt the dog.
Even my trainer told me to make sure there wasn't slack in the collar and to keep it up high on the neck.

I went to classes last night had the collar up to her ears but didn't clip onto it ... I had her in a walk easy harness the ones that the leach crosses over they're shoulder. She was a bit stubborn. I just took my time and waited until I got what I wanted. I didn't care if all the other dogs were doing it faster then Bella.... She did come around and do what I asked of her..... I figured with her being in a full heat that she wasn't at her best. I know she does most times want to please me.

Now I get to go home tonight and practice some more. Have to think what I can bribe her with tonight ... last night it was roast beef. She's getting tired of the dryer liver treats

Think I will order from the supplier.

Thanks again guys!
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Sheila, you did it just right. Don't worry about what the other dogs are doing. It's more important that you work at your own pace and help her make good choices than keeping up with the others. A good choice is choosing to focus on you. If your trainer tells you otherwise, then they're wrong. You keep doing what is working for you.

Do you like the easy walk? Personally, I wasn't a fan. It didn't fit my boys well and it chafed. I prefer the freedom harness. There's also a Perfect Fit modular harness that lets you customize it to your dog's measurements. I'm saving up for that one.

Cheese is often a good high value treat. Or end pieces of lunch meat that you can get for pretty cheap at the deli. End pieces of cheese too. Otis' favorite is anything salmon flavored. Ella's is popcorn, lol. Silly big dog.

You know, I feel kind of silly. I don't know what your girl's name is. Did I miss that in an intro post? Or am I just old and forgetting things? Probably old. That's what my kids say.
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
I do walk Kryten on a prong collar. It was the last thing to try when I ran out of other options. Honestly i like it much better than the head halter I used with him, so does he. At this point it is for 'just in case' as he does walk nicely on leash. The problem is that he loves small animals and wants to play when he sees one. If I see it first I can stop him vocally. But if he sees it and it runs before I know it's there he is strong enough to dislocate my shoulder, it's happened before. The prong is what I call my power brakes.
I do agree with what was mentioned above about fit, type, and that you need to train to where you no longer need the collar but I don't see anything wrong with continued use after that point.
 

Sheila Braund

Well-Known Member
Boxergirl,
Thank you, my trainer said Bella and I where doing great last night even with Bella only doing 1/2 of the training. She was surprised at ho
my girls name is Bella aka beasty Bella when she's playing the house...lol we're going to lose a couch over it some day. I loved the easy walk. because when Bella did pull on it ... it spun her around and sat her down on her behind, with very little effort from me. I had my back turned trying to lock my office door when she tried to run. She hasn't pulled since. I had to get them to special order it for my gal she was a XL or maybe that was XXL will have to look at it. this is the the second one I bought for her. she outgrew the first one. Thats ok I kinda new she would but I wanted her to learn not to drag me down the street.

Smokeycat, I don't see anything wrong with it if you know how to use it. And that's why I had it on her "just in case"
I really need to get her over this fear dog aggression.... We'll keep working on it
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
I was neutral or slightly against the prong until I used one on an unruly rescue... and it worked. :) He did get "collar smart"... but all we had to do to calm him down was put the collar on him, not attached to a leash or anything. He had some... ah... mental issues, so the pressure itself might have been what gave him a calming effect, like a thunder shirt.

I agree that they are "power brakes" or "emergency brakes"... a good backup for that one time your dog surprises you. :)

I really like Tyler Muto's videos on YouTube explaining how the prong works, why it's safer than most collars (flat included), and how best to use it to give the dog control over their own environment - it really points out to me, that when you stop yelling "NO" at a dog all the time, and let them have consistent corrections "from the universe" with perfect timing, they "get it" and can relax, and open their ears to learning new stuff again. At least, that's how it worked for us. The case of the dachshund in the video is very convincing.

To find his videos, search YouTube for "Muto How to Use a Prong Collar" - Part 1 is fitting the collar, Part 2 is using it for the first time, letting the dogs learn what it's all about.
 

Pastor Dave

Well-Known Member
We use a Herman Sprong collar, (sorry about the misspelling)....Mr. Chev comes running when he hears me take the collar off the collar rack for "a walk". I don't think it hurts him one bit....but it does apply pressure when he pulls. He then shakes his neck a bit, then back to the walk. I like the collar. Maybe I won't need it in the future.
Have a great day.
 

CeeCee

Well-Known Member
Thank you DennasMom! I'm going to watch some of Tryer Muto's videos right now


On the note of Tyler's video, if you check out his site http://connectwithyourk9.com/methods/ you will see a video on Conversational Leash Work. It is AMAZING! You can see him using the dog's natural language of Pressure and teaching the dogs how to release the pressure. If you can create this foundation language (Pressure and Release) with your dog, you will go a long way to teach your dog to follow and yield to the pressure without having to interrupt/correct problem behaviors.

He uses prong collars to create a very precise, very soft communication language with dogs. It is truly an artful conversation.