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new study on spaying early????

voidecho

Well-Known Member
This is kind of a tangent that I'm going to spin off based on one of the comments above. If I have an intact male and I take him to a dog park and he's perfectly well behaved, not agressive, is super friendly, but someone elses dog "has a problem" with him and becomes very agressive, who's in the wrong? What's the best course of action? Is it something the other owner should be able to train out of their dog?

My first thought is that if their dog is agressive, it's their fault and they should leave. However, I obviously should do what's best for Lincoln and sticking around just to prove a point and putting him in danger doesn't really help anyone. Hasn't happened yet, but I'm expecting it at some point.
 

Smart_Family

Dog Food Guru
Common sense would say that they are in the wrong but the general public will see you being in the wrong, especially if the other dog is smaller.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
This is kind of a tangent that I'm going to spin off based on one of the comments above. If I have an intact male and I take him to a dog park and he's perfectly well behaved, not agressive, is super friendly, but someone elses dog "has a problem" with him and becomes very agressive, who's in the wrong? What's the best course of action? Is it something the other owner should be able to train out of their dog?

My first thought is that if their dog is agressive, it's their fault and they should leave. However, I obviously should do what's best for Lincoln and sticking around just to prove a point and putting him in danger doesn't really help anyone. Hasn't happened yet, but I'm expecting it at some point.

About all you CAN do is remove your dog from the situation as most folks won't see that their dog was the cause. From watching dogs interact with Apollo (and talking to their owners) it often appears to be a socialization problem, where the neutered dog wasn't ever really socialozed with intact dogs and so doesn't know how to handle the hormone differences. Like most other socialization problems in theory its probly fixable, but I'm not sure if its realistically fixable. And thats without taking into account the dogs who just appear to have problems with other dogs of the same sex regardless.
 

voidecho

Well-Known Member
Yeah, unless I have video of how things started, if there's a fight and something happens, everyone will automatically assume my large un-neutered male mastiff had to have been the agressive one of the two and there won't be anything I can do to convince the public, or the authorities (if it got to that) that it was this other dog.
 

excelrn

Active Member
I didn't see any direct responses to this research, so I'm posting it again. This site discusses the benefits and the risks of neutering either sex at various ages, including absolute risk and relative risk based on how often the problem actually occurs in the population. It also discusses behavioral studies, not just the physical changes. To me, it appears to have been written in a primarily non-biased format, simply providing the information available in order for the reader to make their own decision.

I agree with just about everyone else on this thread- no puppy neutering on large dogs!

www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=1_23_Benefits-Risks-of-Neutering

I do have another question. When human women have hysterectomies, many times the ovaries are left intact. Does anyone know if this process has been done on dogs enough to know what the effect would be? With women, you can't get pregnant, but the hormones are still produced. Would this work for spaying?
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
I did skim your link sorry, just didn't comment cause I got distracted. I'll read it closer when I get a chance.

They can and do perform a similer surgery on dogs, basically all it does is remove the ability to have pups. It doesn't stop the heat cycle or the bleeding as I believe they leave the uterus in place and just cut the tubes, but I admit I've not looked closely. I think my only issue with it is that if you were to want to have her spayed fully later, to prevent the risks of pyometra and reduce the risk of breast cancer, you'd be putting her through two surgeries.
 

excelrn

Active Member
I was thinking more of removing the uterus but leaving the ovaries, not just having tubes cut. She wouldn't need another surgery later on, and wouldn't have the bleeding associated with heats, but still might have some of the behavioral changes associated with heats...at least in theory.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Not that I've run across reference too. Which doesn't mean that it can't be done. In theory though you might want to remove the ovaries later as its the hormones (as I understand it anyway) that increase the risk for breast cancer, though removing the uterus would remove the risk of pyometra anyway.
 

Remie

Well-Known Member
I have spayed after the first heat to prevent reproductory system problems later on. she last me 12.5 years, I don't know if she changed her temperament or not but I had no complaints about her. Here is some more imformation

Pyometra is a disease mainly of middle-aged female dogs that have not been spayed. In the past, we thought pyometra was simply a uterine infection, but today, we know that it is a hormonal abnormality, and a secondary bacterial infection may or may not be present. Pyometra follows a heat cycle in which fertilization did not occur. Typically, within two to four months after the cycle, the female starts showing signs of the disease.

What causes pyometra? The two main hormones produced by the ovaries are estrogen and progesterone. An excessive quantity of progesterone, or the uterus becoming oversensitive to it, causes pyometra. In either case, cysts form in the lining of the uterus. These cysts contain numerous secretory cells, and large quantities of fluids are produced and released into the interior of the uterus.
uterus.gif
This fluid, along with a thickening of the walls of the uterus, brings about a dramatic increase in the overall size of this organ. The uterus is made up of a body with two horns. In the unaffected dog or cat, the horns are smaller than a common pencil. However, in cases of pyometra, they become large, sac-like pouches the circumference of cucumbers and 12 to 18 inches long. Normally, the entire uterus in a 40-pound dog will weigh two to four ounces, but in cases of pyometra, this typically ranges from one to four pounds.
As the disease continues, fluid spills out of the vagina causing the animal to lick this area in an attempt to keep itself clean. Bacteria commonly colonize the uterus by entering through the cervix. This produces an even greater response by the body, as it showers additional fluid and white blood cells into the affected organ.
After a while, the cervix closes. This effectively traps all of the fluid within the uterus. Still, the body continues to transfer more fluid and white blood cells into the organ, causing even further dilatation and growth. The uterus can rupture, spilling its contents into the abdominal cavity. If this occurs, the dog or cat usually dies in less than 48 hours. In most cases, this does not happen.
The body will attempt to eliminate the problem by carrying the wastes and excess fluid through the bloodstream to the kidneys. However, the amount of material in a dog with pyometra is too great to be eliminated in this fashion, overloading the kidney system. The normal toxins that should be excreted from the body build up, and the animal goes into uremic poisoning. Untreated, she will die from kidney failure.

Symptoms As the body attempts to flush out the build-up of waste products through the kidneys, the animal will drink excessive quantities of water (polydipsia) and urinate large amounts frequently (polyuria). She will lick at her vaginal area while the cervix is still open and the uterus is discharging a white fluid. She may run a low-grade fever and if blood work is done, she will show an elevated white blood cell count. As the uterus increases in size and weight, the dog shows weakness in the rear legs, often to the point where she cannot rise without help. As the dog enters kidney failure, she stops eating and becomes very lethargic.

Treatment Since toxicity may develop very quickly in dogs with pyometra, it needs to be treated promptly. Dogs will receive intravenous fluids, usually for several days, and antibiotics. In most cases, the preferred treatment is a complete ovariohysterectomy (spay). This removes the ovaries, oviducts, uterus, and all associated blood vessels. These animals can be a surgical challenge because of their poor overall condition. In some females valued for breeding, prostaglandin and antibiotic therapy may be tried instead of surgery. The prostaglandin is given for 5-7 days and causes the uterus to contract and expel the fluid. In mild cases, when the cervix is still open and the fluid is draining, the success rate is excellent. This therapy should only be used in dogs 6 years of age or younger, who are in stable condition, and have an open cervix. Prostaglandins can have side effects, especially after the first dose, including restlessness, panting, vomiting, increased heart rate, fever, and defecation.

Prevention The best prevention is to have all female animals spayed at or before six months of age. If the animal is used for breeding, then spaying the animal after she is past her breeding years is highly recommended. Pyometra is a fairly common and serious problem and is just one of many compelling reasons to have your female pet spayed at an early age.


 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
According to the Merck Vet Manual pyometra isn't a signifigant risk untill the bitch is 5 or older. And a study done in 2001 indicated that (not taking breed into account) bitches have a 23-24% risk of getting it by age 10yrs (they note that some breeds are more prone than others with a risk up to 50%). Another study done in Japan on Beagles showed a 15.2% risk for bitchs 4 and older. Spaying before the first heat cycle is over reaction, especially considering the benefits of waiting for these giant dogs.
 
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Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
This is kind of a tangent that I'm going to spin off based on one of the comments above. If I have an intact male and I take him to a dog park and he's perfectly well behaved, not agressive, is super friendly, but someone elses dog "has a problem" with him and becomes very agressive, who's in the wrong? What's the best course of action? Is it something the other owner should be able to train out of their dog?

My first thought is that if their dog is agressive, it's their fault and they should leave. However, I obviously should do what's best for Lincoln and sticking around just to prove a point and putting him in danger doesn't really help anyone. Hasn't happened yet, but I'm expecting it at some point.

I've experienced that with Thor, way back when, when I actually went to dog parks. Somehow despite Thor's calm demeanor and attitude, him being whole causes other neutered male dogs to display aggression. Of course the fault was mine. Then again this is the general public here a nation lacking good ole common sense.
 

Kate Williams

Well-Known Member
We will neuter Hank at 2.5-3 years of age. I think the hormones are important. I know mine can go wacky on occasion but I wouldn't want to live without them unless absolutely necessary. Heat cycles frighten me. I am so glad we got a boy. I wanted a girl but the husband wanted a boy. I am really glad he did.
 

smfidler

Well-Known Member
We will neuter Hank at 2.5-3 years of age. I think the hormones are important. I know mine can go wacky on occasion but I wouldn't want to live without them unless absolutely necessary. Heat cycles frighten me. I am so glad we got a boy. I wanted a girl but the husband wanted a boy. I am really glad he did.

I wanted a girl but we got a boy and BOY AM I GLAD! I have never had an intact female so I had no clue about the cycles and all that. Plus I couldn't imagine not having Bentley
 

DMikeM

Well-Known Member
Well all these illnesses associated with intact animals is BS <---(see the capitals?). These studies applied to unaltered dogs are skewed to the benefit of the Animal Medical Associations and public Animal Control agencies. Unaltered does not equal a death sentence for man or beast, if it was true all animals would be required to be altered before the age of reproduction then the end of man and animal would happen. THEY want you to cut your dog so that they can control the population and generate income. If disease was assured by leaving the dog intact they would not try to force you into early alteration. Because they would be throwing future money away. Some DVM are true doctors that care about the dog but many are driven by the all mighty $$$$$$. Especially the large corporate Veterinary clinics and people that back them.
 

jcook

Well-Known Member
Jerms- the same exact thing happened to me! I had an appointment to get my CC spayed at 6 months and right before the appointment I learned about the risks on this forum!! I am so thankful for the invaluable information I have learned on here. Stella won't be spayed until 14 months at the earliest (trying to convince the bf to wait 2 years).
 

Hoffm

Well-Known Member
I agree about waiting to spay and I know there are pros and cons to it. The only con I am really concerned about regarding waiting to spay is the breast cancer one. I keep hearing that the sooner you spay the less likely to get breast cancer and the longer you wait the chances go way up. My moms female Rott died of breast cancer at 9 yrs. She wasn't spayed. How much of a risk do you think this would be?