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  • Welcome back!

    We decided to spruce things up and fix some things under the hood. If you notice any issues, feel free to contact us as we're sure there are a few things here or there that we might have missed in our upgrade.

Kibble... *SIGH*

Iymala

Well-Known Member
Ditto to what Smart posted. Protein is not a factor in skeletal diseases. There are a good many scientific studies that have proven this using control groups and have discovered that calcium and phosphorus % s are one of the contributing causes of growth issues as well as overfeeding. ..too many calories vs energy used for maintenance and growth.

I am on my phone and dont have the links on here to the studies but if you google protein and skeletal disease in dogs you can do your own research. I recommend reading scientific published studies vs opinions from individuals based on old assumptions. The great dane lady still promotes low protein for instance even tho she does have some data on her site disproving the validity of that recommendation.

If you are unsure of the advice provided then please do the research. There is only benefits from gaining more knowledge to your peace of mind when it comes to picking a food for a companion so dear to your heart.
 

voidecho

Well-Known Member
Other than looser stools, I think my boy did better on Orijen Six Fish than he's currently doing on Earthborn Coastal Catch. Better in this case is completely subjective. I'm going to weigh him tomorrow, but in the few months he's been on Earthborn I don't think he's gained much weight at all compared to how he was gaining weight on Orijen. Maybe it's better he's not gaining weight, but who knows. Also, he never left any food in the Orijen bowl and now he's quite frequently leaving half his food in the bowl and then eating it later when he notices it. Not all the time, but several times a week. He's just not as excited about the Earthborn.

They're both five star foods and the Earthborn is upper $40's vs upper $80's I was paying for Six Fish, so I'm going to stick with Earthborn for a while longer. I'm probably going to try out some of the other Earthborn formulas and see if he'd enjoy something other than a fish based food.
 

cookiedough39

Well-Known Member
Mastiff puppy's needing low protein is a big Myth. I read the same thing and after doing my own research found out that if you have a very active puppy protein DOES NOT MATTER. I first said the same thing (low protein is the way) and Smartfamily told me I was wrong. I then dug a little deeper and found out he was right. Thanks by the way Smartfamily.
 

Smart_Family

Dog Food Guru
Mastiff puppy's needing low protein is a big Myth. I read the same thing and after doing my own research found out that if you have a very active puppy protein DOES NOT MATTER. I first said the same thing (low protein is the way) and Smartfamily told me I was wrong. I then dug a little deeper and found out he was right. Thanks by the way Smartfamily.

No worries! The whole protein thing is kinda the old school way of thought but it could possibly stem from the fact that many foods with particularly high protein also have high levels of calcium.
 

Gregory5

Well-Known Member
@Gregory, what formula does Vader eat?
We started with the meadows feast, went through two big bags and just let him try Great Plains feast. He likes them both do far, but the kibble is a tiny bit larger in the Great Plains feast and I think he liked the meadows feast better. He ate BOTN with no problem, maybe it's just me.
 

Crystalanya

Well-Known Member
Indeed, they are a lot of factors in growth, and I should have mentioned phosphorous and calcium (this is what happens when you catch up on the forum in-between other things). From my professional opinion protein is actually still an factor (I'm an animal scientist). It's also easier to give people protein guidelines as most foods with higher protein also have higher calcium and phosphorous as they are trying to prompt growth. This is good in small to medium size breeds. It's really even okay in large breeds. It's just a problem with the giants. That being said if he comes from smaller lines and will probably not be one of the mastiffs above 180, you can probably go higher on the protein. I went up to 28 per cent and teensy bit higher on phosphorous and calcium because Gummy Bear had such a slow growth as a puppy (he was still only around 45 lbs at six months--I'll have to post his growth chart, it's interesting but I only have weight points because the silly puppy moved too much to have reliable data in terms of height and length, margin of error was just too high).

Personally (and this isn't an professional endorsement) I like the Earthborn Holistic better than Blue Buffalo. But all in all, once you get into the higher quality brands, there's not much a difference between them. My biggest thing is how digestible it is for my puppy (and Gummy Bear doesn't do well with high protein, it's too rich for his stomach). However, here's the other thing about protein, vitamin, mineral, and carb content. The number they give you on the bag are formulated to give you the most favourable numbers and are often not reflective of how much is really in the food. There isn't a specific formula they have to use and therefore can manipulate the numbers to be favourable to what they believe the consumer is looking for. Therefore, food can have lower or higher content of protein, vitamins and minerals than what they say on the bag due to how it's calculated.

And honestly, due to how difficult it is to obtain funding (from neutral sources) to do research on animals--particularly companion animals, we still have limited data (which is better than none). I still find the Ns on must studies too low (and the number of research studies done too low) to feel that we can say anything strongly, but studies do indicate that it's important to regulate the growth of giants. On the other hand, I also exercise my giant more than a lot of people would for fear of injury, but there's very little research to indicate that it is indeed harmful. Although I did restrict Gummy's running during his most rapid growth phase because if they do hurt themselves at that age, it's a potentially difficult and costly recovery.
 

Crystalanya

Well-Known Member
And i also meant to mention that there still isn't overwhelming evidence that pano (and other bone growth diesease) are caused by diet at all. It's believed they play a role but that genetics, metabolism, and skeletal structure is likely still the determining factors more so than diet. But it's probably best to be on the safe side.
 

raji

Well-Known Member
My EM puppy(6 months) has been on BB Wilderness "salmon" for the past 3.5 months and has done really well on it. His growth has been really good, he's now around 90lbs, his coat is so soft (and his stools are not!), and he really loves it(don't have to top it or mix in anything). I remember being where you're at in this process of trying to find the right food and I thought it was a complete pain in the ass! The more I learned, the more confused I was! Thanks to the kind and helpful members here, I finally got it narrowed down to about 3choices-then convenience became a factor. So best of luck!
 

MNpresa

Well-Known Member
Thanks Raji! You're completely right, the more I learn the more confused I am. I think I have my 3 choices. Not sure what I would do without this forum and all the helpful advice.
 

MNpresa

Well-Known Member
@Crystal, thanks for all that advice. I'm getting a presa canario so she'll be on the smaller side of most the mastiff family.
 

Iymala

Well-Known Member
Crystal,

I am interested in a few responses since you are an animal scientist.

Do you have any sources you can share that show protein contributes to skeletal growth other than by adding calories used for growth? That when feed appropriately (not overfed) it can contribute to pano or OCD or HOD? My background is in nutrition as well, and as far as I was taught protein has a direct affect on muscle growth and maintance as well as helping regulate the bodies glucose functions. Now if we are talking about calories contributing to growth, than protein is used last behind Carbs and fats. It would seem an owner is much more likely to have growth issues if they over feed.. regardless of the amount of protein.

The only time I could see a high protein grain free kibble causing problems with skeletal growth is if an owner over fed the kibble. It is more nutrient dense and thus the recommended feeding amount are much lower than those of grain inclusive. An owner who does not follow these guidelines and either free feeds or increases the amount of food to what they were feeding of a less dense food could very well cause growth issues, yet it would not be related to protein but to caloric intake. Granted you should be feeding per body condition of your puppy, but some people are unable to judge this properly.

I have read a lot of information on HOD, Pano, and OCD as I previously had a growing Great Dane. They seem much more susceptible to these growth issues for some reason than mastiffs... or at least I hear more about it from Great Dane owners. I always fed a high protein grain free kibble according to body condition. Kept my puppy lean so I could see the outline of the last 2 ribs when he moved and never even had a scare with skeletal issues. So far none of the people I knew ... I was a member of the Great Dane forums which are quite active... that were feeding grain free options had growth issues with their puppy. I am always looking for more information tho and feel like the more I know the better choices I can make for my dog. If you have any sources I would love to read them and educate myself

1st you said the Guaranteed Analysis can be fabricated. Where do you get this information from?

I worked in the pet food industry in research and development and per FDA guidelines you must have a guaranteed analysis printed on the food. We sent our samples to an outside lab to get the results and have the paperwork to back up that nutritional statement. The FDA can at any time pull and test your product and compare it to your nutritional statement. If it does not match they will contact you and you are required to update your labeling. If you are dealing with Dog Treats and shipping them over state lines then you fall under the pervue of the Department of Agriculture and must include a less comprehensive guaranteed analysis on your products only inluding crude protein, fat, ash, moisture if I remember correctly.

None of these number can be fabricated unless you change your formula for your product. That formula must meet the ingredient list, listed by quantity. It is too expensive for companies to change this often as they normally have to wait till they are close to out of all their bags and are setting up for reprint. When you are dealing with larger companies that co-pack their kibble, which many do, the process for a change is even longer.

Depending on the company and who they are distributing to, they could also be using a 3rd part to audit their facility and paperwork.
 

Crystalanya

Well-Known Member
These numbers aren't fabricated, but they can be manipulated. This is true with anything. The guaranteed analysis has to be of a per cent of dry matter. It doesn't account for moisture content or the digestibility of the protein. So some foods are actually far higher in digestible protein than others and others have less and more and more nutritionists are now talking about quality of the protein more than the content. You also don't have to put in the per cent of the ingrediants within the food (which if i were lobbying for something it would be that along with origin of pet food). I, however, am far more concerned about avoiding 'bad ingredients' and adequate analysis than anything else. That's why I don't stress out too much about calcium/phosphorous/protein content. Having seen what by-product is and knowing how skewed the farming industry is in providing cheap filler grains, I want to avoid that. I will say I was educated in a university that is fairly critical of the industry and really critical of the pet food industry. Honestly, I always made my own until I moved to the States. These are my first dogs who've eaten commercial kibble. Making your own is still best but not very economical if you have a mastiff and no longer have steady access to sheep and goat farmers. I also want to know where stuff comes from so I can ensure it's ethical for the environment, people, et cetera. And I do really feel that once you get into foods that avoid by-products, fillers, et cetera, they really aren't all that much different. Sometimes I feel they put in a very small per cent of very healthy seeming food to make their product more attract, but it's difficult to know whether there's enough of that ingredient in there to make much a difference.

I'll pull a list of articles as soon as I have a free moment (yes, imagine maniacal laughing). I've been trying to stay atop of the literature, but I work in research compliance so I spend much more of my time these days keeping up with ethics. I have a good lit review of dog growth that I did during my dissertation, I just have to find it.
 

DieselsDad

New Member
Ugh! Whatever happened to just "buying dog food"? We're going through this right now. We got Diesel this past Friday. He's an 8 month old Bull and his previous owner was feeding him Old Roy (or whatever was on sale at Wal-Mart). My parents got 10 very happy and healthy years out of their Rotts on Iams (Both died in their 11th year, female from her 2nd round of cancer and male from a degenerative spinal cord condition) so that was my first thought. Went to PetSmart and spoke with an obedience trainer who's raised and rescued large breeds and she recommended Nutro. Since then, I've been obsessing and over-thinking nearly EVERYthing about Diesel and his health...Raw? Kibble? Some special boutique brand from the peaks of the Swiss Alps made from the very best organically farm-raised salmon??
 

thelady_v2010

Well-Known Member
I feed the Earthborn Coastal Catch. I get very firm poops. What I don't get is a satisfied dog. He is always hungry and I feed him 4-5 cups a day and he weighs 48 lbs. He gains 3 lbs a week and I can see ALL his ribs.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
I feed the Earthborn Coastal Catch. I get very firm poops. What I don't get is a satisfied dog. He is always hungry and I feed him 4-5 cups a day and he weighs 48 lbs. He gains 3 lbs a week and I can see ALL his ribs.

go ahead and give him another 1/2cup or so