is there really 3 differe nt types boerboel ? pls help !?!?!?!?!?

Discussion in 'General Mastiff Discussion' started by grazefull1, Apr 23, 2013.

  1. DMikeM

    DMikeM Active Member

    Hi Janet good to see you here. It will be real nice to have someone with more working knowledge of the BB here. I read your posts on FB all the time and yes I have stirred up some discussions there but as you know it needs to be done. I am surprised you go towards the bigger bulkier BB. I like the Piona and Doppers and stay away from the Ysterberg if I can but I know that is hard to do. My Jade is Centurion, and Bear Mountain but her grands are Middelpos and Bullet. (Both Piona and Ysterberg lines).

    So what brought you to this forum?
     
  2. Janet Carr

    Janet Carr New Member

    Oh it's a small world then :)

    I came to the forum because I noticed on my blog stats that someone from here had linked to one of the articles on my blog. And then I couldn't stop reading :)

    I am a sucker for a huge muscular dog with a Mastiff head, though that is far away from what I grew up with. I am still looking for photos from the 60s and 70s which I will post on FB. My faves are Avalonia Waldor (RIP) and Billabong Boss.

    Ooh I love Middelpos. Your Jade must be a beauty!
     
  3. DMikeM

    DMikeM Active Member

    I was sure you seen Jade before and commented on her Pics on FB.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  4. bullyhillmama

    bullyhillmama New Member

    i love Jade!!! i could look at pics of her all day!!
     
  5. grazefull1

    grazefull1 New Member

    she is a beauty :eek:
     
  6. DMikeM

    DMikeM Active Member

    Thank you.. Poor girl has grumpy tummy this morning.
     
  7. Janet Carr

    Janet Carr New Member

    Yes I did - oh wow she is perfect! What a stunner!
     
  8. DMikeM

    DMikeM Active Member

    Thanks, she has some good lines in her.
     
  9. grazefull1

    grazefull1 New Member

    the pic really show the good bloodline:)
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal New Member

    I know this is an old post, but I am new to the site and wanted to add my 2 cents on what I have found on the breed.

    In regards to the types: There are multiple "types" of various breeds. Look at the American Bulldog. The heavier, more muscular type are called Johnson type and the more slender "working" bulldog is called to Scott type. Both named after their respective breeders. I think Boerboels are the same in the sense. You get the more agile and slender dogs that did more of the farm work, and the stockier dogs were mainly for guarding the farms from looting natives. For the stockier dogs, a bulk of the guarding ability is looking intimidating. Others were prefered for hunting, and they may have had a different skill set than the other two "types".

    In regards to the black Boerboel being a "mutt": I have found that untrue. There is an interview on Youtube with an Kobus Rust, a native South African that grew up with Boerboels and an early member of the largest Boerboel registry SABT. On the interview, he attests that where he grew up, he saw more black and brindle boerboels than any other color. As it was pointed out, the Boerboel is a mix of a variety of European and native african dogs. Many of these dogs have black as their accepted standard. On another website board, there is a discussion on genetic mapping of the boerboels that prove black Boerboels have always existed. It stands to reason that black boerboels were always present in the development of the breed, but were excluded most likely due to personal preference. I have read a short paragraphs about piebald boerboels being prefered for hunting because they were easy to spot in the wilderness. Their color was different from all the native african animals. I can imagine that when hunting its important to NOT kill your own dog.

    I find it funny that the breed's "defining characteristic" is its stable temperment, yet most of the arguement about the breed is due to color. Now the big discussion is on whether or not to allow black and tan color dogs. Where are the discussions on hip/elbow displasia?? I think if the orgs paid as much attention to temperment, health, and any aspects other than color, the breed will be in much better shape.

    By the way, I own a Boerboel. A 6 month old brown/red male.
     
  11. grazefull1

    grazefull1 New Member

    thanks for replying been awhile but i do like your 2 cents when u add it, it does make sense ive been resaerching myself its hard to denie the info can u give me the site u got the info from n a pic of your baby lol
     
  12. DMikeM

    DMikeM Active Member

    About the black mutts. Produce a picture of one before 2000 that did not come from Spitsvuur, the Muller dogs or Petshop Jim. If black Boerboels did exist then there would be many more kennels producing them not just one or 2. There are dozens of theser mutts now maybe a hundred or so but there are THOUSANDS of the standard colors from hundreds of kennels. The reason the color debate is so heatd and important is because it introduces unknown genetics into the ALREADY ESTABLISHED Breed standard. The Muler dogs were slipped into the SABT/SABBA by underhanded means and registered as brindle dogs not black, this kennel was also asked by the SABT/SABBA to stop breeding black dogs because they were not in the standard! He did not comply and being he was a board member he and his followers pushed to have the standard changed.

    All this will not matter soon as the Director of South Africas Animal Improvement has requested all the orgs to submit the breed standard as it was in 2004 when the Animal improvement Act was initiated.

    The black mutt was not part of that standard or accepted by any organizations at this time. All will most likely be forced to comply with the original standard as the Boerboel is protected by South Africa's Government as a Landrace breed.

     
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal New Member

    A picture won't do much good because those who do not agree with the color will just say " its not purebred" or that "it really is an ultra brindle and it is hard to see in a black/white picture". I know because that argument has been brought already in other forums.
    Kobus Rust was one of the original selectors of the 72 boerboels that became the original registered boerboels.

    On another note, if the standard was established in 1983, that is 17 years between then and 2000. I would not expect to find many breeders that would continue to breed for a specific color that is not recognized by any organization of any breed.

    For some reason, the black boerboel has been associated with unethical breeding. Other colors could be introduced as well. Black does not automatically mean a mutt. For those of you who know more about the breed, look into Peit-Zyn-Drift Kennels and why the original breeder is no longer active today. If im not mistaken, there was a time where that breeder would go to petshops and buy boerboels (cheap boerboels) and say they were born of his dogs. Buy selling them at higher prices, they got more profit. That is possibly the most underhanded thing you can do, but PZD dogs are still sought after as "good quality" boerboels.

    And possibly above all else, there is GENETIC support for black dogs. It is hard to beat genetics with heresay. But I'm sure that won't stop people from trying.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2014
  14. DMikeM

    DMikeM Active Member

    So we could not produce quality photos with detail in the 70s, 80. and 90s? Baloney! I have pictures on my dogs in my mothers photo albums in 1978 that are full color and exceptional detail. Man has been taking exceptional photos for over a hundred years.
    This photo was taken in 1915 and you can see every detail of his location
    [​IMG]
    Documentationhere. Photography - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    If James had a black pup he would say he had a fence jumper. Ask him yourself rather than speculate. Or I can if you like I am pretty good friends with ihim. Also Johan Swart does not support the black dog either.
    Lucas van der Merwe (RIP) another one of the founders #3 man on the SABT
    founders also said he had black boerboels. But they were not, they were all Ultra (reverse) Brindles.
    Like this pup
    [​IMG]
    And this dog known as blackie.
    [​IMG]

    In the video you speak of "201209 Kobus Rust Boerboel involvement" he says there were black boerboels but follows up with that they were dogs with brindle stripes. Still not a black boerboel but what we call an ultra brindle today.
    Just like Authentic Boerboel Odinson-Thor of Mizpah blood.
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Th0r

    Th0r Member

    Re: is there really 3 different types boerboel ? pls help !?!?!?!?!?

    Why argue about something so petty?
    Once upon a time, yellow and chocolate labs were culled because they were not the breed standard!
    How can a black pup from the same parents be called a mutt?
    Sounds very elitist to me considering it's a fairly new breed. Colour should be the last thing to worry about considering I have seen a few BB and none of them "look" like one from the breed standard!

    Sent from my Nexus 5
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal New Member

    As I said with pictures, that arguement has been brought up already in another forum. In that instance, they were looking for black dogs before 1983. When one was brought up, the excuses came out. Me bringing up the time difference and the notion that there black boerboels were not allowed in 1983, one would not suspect many black boerboels, let alone black breeders.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2014
  17. DMikeM

    DMikeM Active Member

    Re: is there really 3 different types boerboel ? pls help !?!?!?!?!?

    The argument is due to the introduction of different breeds to create the black coat. Change of temperament, health size and function. Like adding Dachshund to a Basset hound to get a red coat. You destroy the breed.

     
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal New Member

    Re: is there really 3 different types boerboel ? pls help !?!?!?!?!?

    I agree Thor. I think for the Boerboel however, ethical breeding and the black color have been linked together. Thank you for the example with the Lab and the other contributor that brought up the Dalmation.

    I find it interesting that I gave an example about a Boerboel breeder that was buying dogs from petshops and selling them to others as dogs he bred and it was not even acknowledged. If im not mistaken, PZD did not breed black dogs. However, these dogs (Peit Zyn Drift) are still sought after today. The issue of color needs to be seperated from the umbrella notion of ethical breeding.
     
  19. DMikeM

    DMikeM Active Member

    I just asked James about that comment and will let you know.

    As for genetic evidence, there is none. it's all speculative. Post photographic evidence of the existence of the black Boerboels pre-SABT or even between 1984 to 2000.

    As for the fence jumper those are my words assuming what he might say if this happened.


     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal New Member

    Re: is there really 3 different types boerboel ? pls help !?!?!?!?!?


    I would LOVE to see the proof you have that the black color is directly linked to a complete change in temperment, health status and function in the Boerboel.

    I would like to let this be know, but I am not a fan of the black color myself. But then again, I really don't like fawn colors either. This is about seperating the issue of black color and unethical breeding.

    DMike:

    I find it interesting that you told me not to speculate, but you did just that in assuming his words. You obviously saw the Kobus Rust interview,

    And while your at it, please address PZD dogs, I want to hear your understanding of this matter.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2014

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