I need help getting started on raw

[Mollys dad]

Molly has been a stubborn pup on kibble from the day we brought her home. She is now almost 14 mos and is losing weight. She will almost starve herself for 3 days before she eats and will eat 2 good meals in one day (4 or so cups total of Earthborn with coconut oil) - then the process starts over.

The vet can find nothing wrong with her - he'll plop some science diet or similar down and she will kill it. I've rotated through all the acceptable TOTW mixes, Earthborn, Acana, and Fromms (grain free blends with appropriate calcium/phosphorus ratios). She will eat them once or twice and then nothing. We stopped giving her any food while we eat - or any food we eat for a month or so now and no change (we never fed her much anyway - a bite here and there). She is so stubborn. She has less energy and wants to play less and less except on the days she eats. We put the food in her crate and leave the room for 30-45 minutes and she will have eaten almost nothing. Take it up and try it again in the evening and the same thing. Even toppers won't work - never really have except for coconut oil and olive oil and then only on occasion.

Please - someone give me detailed feeding instructions and how to get started on raw. I'm an engineer so I need details! I've read all kinds of posts here and on the yahoo boards but no real specifics. There is the 80/10/10 rule which makes no sense to me because I have no idea how big Molly will eventually be. I need an example meal plan so to speak. Do you feed once a day? Twice a day? Do you leave the bone in chicken parts or remove and feed separate? Why feed chicken feet and necks? Is pork ok? How big of a bone is too big?

I've read so many conflicting opinions on barf and prey and raw...I'm so frustrated I'm gonna barf! As I type Molly is sleeping and I can easily see 4 ribs. She was up to 115, now she is down to 103. She clawed her way into the pantry this afternoon and ate a loaf of bread and part of a bag of dry cat food - she's hungry.

Molly is a full bred BM. Her pop is 180lbs and her mom is 125lbs - both full grown. Dog chow is starting to look good. I'm so afraid we are putting an unnecessary strain on her body.

Please help!

 

[Mollys dad]

Sorry for the anger coming through in my post - I'm just worried about my baby girl.

 

[musicdeb]

Ok, first of all breathe...

Sounds like you have a very picky eater who is given too many options. When you start a food, you need to remain on the food for at least a month or so. She will eat when she's hungry. To us humans, not eating means we have failed. If she doesn't eat anything for 4-5 days, then there could be something wrong with her. Not eating means not treats, no human food, no dog food.

During the summer, mastiffs will self-regulate their food. Titan used to eat twice a day, now he eats once and sometimes very little of the food. As long as she is drinking water, pottying and playing normally, she will be fine. The vet has checked her out and she's ok.

Next time the vet throws her some science diet, tell him no thank you because science diet is loaded with grains.

The 80/10/10 rule is based on expected weight. What did her parent's weigh? Let's say the parent's weigh 150 and 180, I would guess she'll hit about 160-170. This is a guesstimate when working with expected weight. Watch her body as she starts eating raw. If she's becoming too thin, up the food. If she's becoming to big, meaning can't see or feel her last 3 ribs, then decrease the food.

When you start, start cold turkey with the raw diet. Start her will chicken legs or leg quarters for about a week to 10 days. Slowly introduce another type of chicken. After another 2 weeks, slow introduce another meat like pork or beef. Remember the diet should be 80% meat, 10% meaty bone and 10% organ meats. Organ meats should be slowly introduced after 2-3 weeks of raw.

If she does not eat the chicken right away, that's ok, she will. She may regurgitate her food and that is perfectly normal. I freaked out the first time did it. I have to boil Titan's meat for about 2-3 minutes so the juices start flowing in the meat for him to eat the meat. That's my fault for producing the food monster. Some people will place the raw meat in a pan of melted butter for a minute or 2 to get the juices flowing but try full raw at first.

She will start to drink less water and her poop will be dramatically reduced.

Slow and steady on introducing new meats and especially organ meats. Too much organ meats will cause diarrhea.

Hope that helps

 

[DennasMom]

I'm a fellow engineer... so I'll give you a few more numbers to work with:

Meal plan: 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% "other" organ (normally kidney around here)

Figure most bone-in cuts at 25%-30% bone (30% for pork ribs, 25% for whole chicken).

To start, go buy a "all natural" (no salt added) chicken. Whack it into 3 or 4 pieces. Put one piece in the dish and present to puppy for dinner. [With Denna, I did have to start with smaller cuts of meat and work up to big ones that she had to work harder at to chew.] Do that for a week or more (until poops regulate and look good and solid), then try adding some pork or beef (one or the other). See how that goes... if that goes well, think about adding in a little piece of beef or chicken liver - like 0.5oz in a meal to start... liver can loosen things up in a hurry (runny poops!).

Here's another 'getting started guide' - Raw Fed Dogs - Natural Prey Model Rawfeeding Diet
There are some variances, because this is real life we're talking about, and every dog and every situation is different - you have to find something that works for both you and your dog.

The most important concepts are:

Meat, Bone AND Organ are all needed (80/10/10 is a very good guideline to aim for)
Start Slow and Small (feed in 1/2 sized portions for a day or two to get things going without overwhelming the system... add new 'stuff' in small portions, too)
Balance OVER TIME. I balance Denna's menu over one week, not daily.
Variety is GOOD - once regulated to eating raw, aim for 4 or more different proteins to rotate through.

You could easily create a picky eater with raw food, too... so put food down... let dog eat in peace.
Pick up what's lever-over after ~20 minutes and re-present it at the next meal, as needed.

Also - going out for a long walk can help work up an appetite, too. Just be sure to rest for 30-60 minutes after exercise before eating.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes!

 

[Hector]

Here are some additional information on older threads that might help.

I'm ready to start feeding raw but I need some help! - Page 2 - Mastiff Forum

http://puppybutt.weebly.com/uploads/7/6/9/2/7692088/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.4.1.pdf

tips for raw diet - Mastiff Forum

 

[Mollys dad]

Thanks for all of the links....been reading like crazy. Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I'm letting Molly fast today, and starting with some chicken tomorrow.

I'll be back with a poop report!

 

[Mollys dad]

So far so good. Two days and the diarrhea is subsiding. Molly is loving the raw food. Through some of the links you guys sent me, I found a local group that buys together. Lots of the folks use Blue Ridge Beef company for tripe and organs. Anyone have any experience with them?

 

[musicdeb]

How's Miss Molly doing today? Diarrhea gone?

 

[Mollys dad]

Miss Molly is doing really well! Thank you for asking. No diarrhea today at all. She never did vomit once we started the new diet. We are going Sunday morning to pick up some meat as part of a group buy - chicken, beef, and turkey including some chubs of green tripe. Gonna start her on some organ meat and tripe next week - just a little.

I didn't think her coat could be any shinier and softer - but it is starting to improve. Her energy level has picked up (and so has the stinker quotient)!

The group I'm meeting with has several mastiff owners - one english mastiff that is 12 yrs old!

 

[musicdeb]

Great status report on Miss Molly! FYI: green tripe is crack to some dogs. Titan would not eat it. Angelbears dogs go crazy over green tripe. Start slowly with the green tripe to prevent diarrhea.

 

[angelbears]

Yep, my crew loves it but Deb is right. Slowly intro it. Once your pup is transitioned fully to it you might find tripe meals can help when your pup has an upset tummy or just generally not feeling well.

Congrats!

 

[Mollys dad]

I've started adding (slowly) organ meat to Molly's meals. Softer stools but no cannon butt! The local raw folks think I should shoot for 2# of muscle/bone (proper ratio of course), .5# of organ meat, and .5# of green tripe per day. With that "formula", adjust up and down as needed for weight control.

She has been crazy about her food! She also doesn't pester us as much for bites of what we are eating.

Only downside is we are going to need a bigger freezer - I'm learning you gotta take the good deals as they come or you miss out!

 

[musicdeb]

Remember, raw diet should be 80% meat, 10% meaty bone and 10% organ meat. 2# of muscle/bone is a lot of meaty bone.

Yes, a bigger freezer is warranted when feeding raw. I live in a 1 bedroom apartment with a small freezer and I have to fill it up every 2 weeks. 90% of the food in the freezer is Titan's and I get a small space for my stuff.

 

[caudex]

Mollys dad, I am also just starting, thanks to this group. (I asked about cooking meals, and while no one actually SAID, "Man up and stop being such a wimp," I chose to take it that way and just go for it. )

I stumbled across this guide: http://puppybutt.weebly.com/uploads/7/6/9/2/7692088/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.4.1.pdf I'm sure there are others like it, but this had a lot of info on prey model in one place, and answered questions we didn't even think to ask.

It's so thorough that when my husband, questioning me about the different protein options, jokingly said, "what about wallaby?" I replied 100% honestly, "didn't think we needed it, so I skipped the marsupial section." Lots of good info, it's helping us a lot.

 

[Mollys dad]

Someone else had pointed me to that site - lots of good info.

How's your pup doing?

 

[caudex]

Wonderfully. She took to it like a duck to water-- or a rabid wolverine, if you want to get really descriptive. Her meals are all served frozen because she is capable of scarfing, even properly chewing her bones, a back or quarter in under 2 minutes. Added coconut oil, and broth, because she went from obsessive drinker to hardly touching it once the salty kibble was gone. Went off without a hitch.

Both of my dogs, though, are weirdos who won't touch the meat with their paws. My AB lies down with his feet as FAR apart as possible to keep from touching the icky meat, lol.