How to choose the right trainer?

[musicdeb]

I spoke with my BF last night about the trainer and I remembered more about what he said.

He said that he would train Titan until he was exhausted and then teach him down. If he didn't go down, he would force him down and hold him there until he got it. I was shocked when he said that.

He also said that the dogtra ecollars that he sells may not be strong enough for Titan and I may have to buy a stronger one.

I have marked this trainer off of my list.

Man, Joshua, I wish you were closer. I'd pay you to help me train Titan to stop lunging.

I will do the training like you described with the sit, stay etc with one command after another. Titan knows all of the commands and I will do as you suggested.

 

[Maks]

He's a Great Dane. He usually listens well. In the instance I'm talking about, there was something he was barking at and when he saw the collar he stopped.

Glad to know that's the case then.. what kind of dog is this? It would sound to be a highly sensitive dog.

I would also still want the dog to stop because I told him to, what happens when I don't have the collar?

 

[Maks]

Joshua-

The two trainers I spoke with....scary alpha wolf man, and the lady who won't even see Maks unless I have him neutered first both told me the same thing....that Maks is acting out because he doesn't see me or anyone else as his alpha and he is claiming the role. I know you said before not to get caught up on whole alpha thing. Do you have any tips on how you would handle something like that?

 

[musicdeb]

Maks, check out the videos Josh posted about the different types of aggression. Has a lot of info about training. After watching all 5 videos, I have a better understanding of what to do with Titan.

I started the drill today with the training with Titan, we did once in the apartment and once at the park for about 10 minutes each. There were a lot of people at the park today. Titan had no issues with anyone. He paid attention to me. I used boiled cut up chicken for the training treats which had his total attention.

I even through a drive thru window which at times, Titan can bark at everyone coming close to the car. He had no issues today because I will telling him to leave it and when he didn't bark, he got a treat.

Thanks Josh! The drill is working! I'll remain on the drill work.

 

[Hector]

Maks, check out the videos Josh posted about the different types of aggression. Has a lot of info about training. After watching all 5 videos, I have a better understanding of what to do with Titan.

I started the drill today with the training with Titan, we did once in the apartment and once at the park for about 10 minutes each. There were a lot of people at the park today. Titan had no issues with anyone. He paid attention to me. I used boiled cut up chicken for the training treats which had his total attention.

I even through a drive thru window which at times, Titan can bark at everyone coming close to the car. He had no issues today because I will telling him to leave it and when he didn't bark, he got a treat.

Thanks Josh! The drill is working! I'll remain on the drill work.

Deb, how did you work with him before? I thought you did the whole desensitization and focus on handler and strike zone thing. Did you use corrections if he broke the commands?

 

[musicdeb]

I did not do the drill which I find very helpful. Yes, he does very well on the focus on me if I catch him before he enters the strike zone.

2 days ago, I was walking him to the car to go to the park. There was a man walking on right side towards us and a female walking on the left side walking towards us. I told Titan to leave it and sit. We were next to the car. The man turned around and walked away from us and then he turned around really quick and walked rather fast towards us.

Titan saw the man and then by that time, the woman right next to us. Titan lunged at the woman. Thankfully, the woman was about 10 feet from us when he lunged. Titan then looked at the man and lunged at him. It happened so quickly.

I was able to hold him while I was telling him leave it. Within seconds, Titan had stopped and came to me.

I apologized to the man but the woman was already too far away from us because she sped up her walking past us.

After that, I started to think that I didn't have it under control. Today showed otherwise. I think I just freaked out.

I hope I answered your question, Linda.

 

[joshuagough]

I use the a "routine".. just a series of strung together basic commands sit/down/stay/stand/shake etc indoors with no distractions until I have everything 110% (the dog is on point with good timing after the command is given) do this for however long it takes to get everything solid. I'm assuming Titian knows these, but if he doesn't you would just work on them one at a time.

Then I will use that same routine outdoors (at a good distance at first) to a distraction or problem area/person/people with the dog (I commonly use a dog park or regular park, I work outside the park).. "I" ignore the distraction and walk my dog thru his/her routine, the goal being they are focus on the task at hand (your routine/commands).

If the dog is more focused on the distraction than working with you (doing the routine) add some distance between your self/dog and the distraction. I do this several times for at least a week.. this is a trail and error thing knowing when the dog is ready to move in closer.

Then I will work closer into the distraction area or problem person.. my goal isn't to teach the dog not to re-act to that person or distraction.. the goal is him/her to be focused on o.b (a routine). If they are focused on a task they can't be focused on lunging after a person or anything else for that matter. If they do show behavior such as jumping or lunging at a person, I will apply a level 10 correction using your correcting term (I use "no"), and then use the down/lay command until they are 100% calm. Then back to the routine.

As for the correction part, I only use a leash correction if I'm 110% sure the dog knows what I'm asking and there is refusal (or for inappropriate behavior IE: lunging) . The numbers I indicated are on a scale from 1-10, I use the correction term "no" then apply the correction with the leash 1 second afterwards.. this is quick and sharp, the intent isn't pain, it's direction to the dog to stop whatever your doing and focus on me for next steps.

Did that answer your questions?

Joshua, can you please clarify this?

I go thru the same routine over and over and get closer to my distractions, if he get's out of line and he knows what's being ask.. he gets a correction. I start with a level 3 correction (with the leash).. I jump in increments of 4.. I don't think I've ever gotten passed a 2nd stage with but 1 dog and that was with another dog running up on us.

 

[musicdeb]

Yes, it did. Thank you!

Titan knows all of the commands and he did really well today on the drill which we have done twice today for about 10 minutes each. I will continue to do the drill throughout the day.

He did very well at the park today which I was so proud of him. There were a couple of times, he refused to lay down and I said no no no and snapped the leash. He proceeded to lay down. The lay down command is the one he is little stubborn about doing.

I will continue the drill until he does every command when asked to do them with no delay or issue.

I think my confidence improved today when doing the drills at the park and he ignored the people and focused on me.

You've been a life saver, Josh! Thank you!

 

[joshuagough]

The leash and the e-collar should be used in the exact same manner, no exception. The method you describe is the easiest manner to train a dog, that's why trainers use it.. but it doesn't teach the dog anything.. they end up trying to "beat" the correction.. you want the dog thinking and trying to figure out what to do on his/her own.

I agree. Like I said, I am waiting to hear from other trainers. If the ecollar will work for Titan, then I'm cool with it. However, the way this trainer described it, he will use the collar to force Titan with shock to perform. That I'm not cool with.

 

[musicdeb]

The leash and the e-collar should be used in the exact same manner, no exception. The method you describe is the easiest manner to train a dog, that's why trainers use it.. but it doesn't teach the dog anything.. they end up trying to "beat" the correction.. you want the dog thinking and trying to figure out what to do on his/her own.

Agree 100%. Like I said, that trainer is off my list.

 

[joshuagough]

Ehh.. parts of what he is saying can be useful but I don't like the general feel from what your relaying. You can use exercise to expend energy before you get into training which is a good thing for a dog that's amp'd up. Again with the whole force thing, you can do that and get results but it's the wrong way and if Titan decides enough is enough.. he's going to have some "fun" on his hands. Not all dogs break easily, some you can push and they will push back even harder.

I use dogtra ecollars, I don't know what model he's selling but they make some of the best e-collars on the market.. and they are PLENTY strong.

If I was close I'd help ya for free, good luck

I spoke with my BF last night about the trainer and I remembered more about what he said.

He said that he would train Titan until he was exhausted and then teach him down. If he didn't go down, he would force him down and hold him there until he got it. I was shocked when he said that.

He also said that the dogtra ecollars that he sells may not be strong enough for Titan and I may have to buy a stronger one.

I have marked this trainer off of my list.

Man, Joshua, I wish you were closer. I'd pay you to help me train Titan to stop lunging.

I will do the training like you described with the sit, stay etc with one command after another. Titan knows all of the commands and I will do as you suggested.

 

[musicdeb]

Thanks Josh! Titan is not the type of pup to take harsh handling, he would bite.

 

[Maks]

Maks, check out the videos Josh posted about the different types of aggression. Has a lot of info about training. After watching all 5 videos, I have a better understanding of what to do with Titan.

I started the drill today with the training with Titan, we did once in the apartment and once at the park for about 10 minutes each. There were a lot of people at the park today. Titan had no issues with anyone. He paid attention to me. I used boiled cut up chicken for the training treats which had his total attention.

I even through a drive thru window which at times, Titan can bark at everyone coming close to the car. He had no issues today because I will telling him to leave it and when he didn't bark, he got a treat.

Thanks Josh! The drill is working! I'll remain on the drill work.

Ahhh....this is me being an idiot. Where can I find the videos?

 

[musicdeb]

Forms of Aggression - Videos - Mastiff Forum

 

[Maks]

Forms of Aggression - Videos - Mastiff Forum

Thanks musicdeb!

 

[joshuagough]

99% of the time a dog/owner is having a issue, the dogs o.b. is poor. The owner has either been lax on this aspect of training or the dog has never been taught any or very little. I'd also say 99% of the time the dog is a product of the owner or past owner, fears.. lack of understanding.. effort to into training the dog etc.

I don't spend a great deal of time on classifying why the dog is doing x,y or z (it is relevant to understand a solution but).. I just look for a solution to solve the issue.

I'd say crate training (controlling the dogs free time via the crate) and a serious focus on o.b. can fix a large majority of all the issues people face.

There are behavioral issues that are genetic that take specifics to correct and sometimes they are never fully corrected they are just managed and you don't put the dog in a situation where it can fail.

What's your major concerns with Maks? How's his o.b? That would be my personal starting point.

Joshua-

The two trainers I spoke with....scary alpha wolf man, and the lady who won't even see Maks unless I have him neutered first both told me the same thing....that Maks is acting out because he doesn't see me or anyone else as his alpha and he is claiming the role. I know you said before not to get caught up on whole alpha thing. Do you have any tips on how you would handle something like that?

 

[joshuagough]

Glad to hear he did well. One thing I'd focus on is make sure you have everything your doing solid in your apartment or yard before you try moving him to the point of introducing distractions.. you want to set him up for success. I try to lay out my game plan, baby steps make for a solid score at the end of the game. Food is always a winner lol..

Use your leash in the car with Titian.. if the person doesn't look out of place tell him to leave it.. if he keeps it up correct him with the leash. I went thru this with Tucker, it can turn into a problem.

Maks, check out the videos Josh posted about the different types of aggression. Has a lot of info about training. After watching all 5 videos, I have a better understanding of what to do with Titan.

I started the drill today with the training with Titan, we did once in the apartment and once at the park for about 10 minutes each. There were a lot of people at the park today. Titan had no issues with anyone. He paid attention to me. I used boiled cut up chicken for the training treats which had his total attention.

I even through a drive thru window which at times, Titan can bark at everyone coming close to the car. He had no issues today because I will telling him to leave it and when he didn't bark, he got a treat.

Thanks Josh! The drill is working! I'll remain on the drill work.

 

[musicdeb]

Glad to hear he did well. One thing I'd focus on is make sure you have everything your doing solid in your apartment or yard before you try moving him to the point of introducing distractions.. you want to set him up for success. I try to lay out my game plan, baby steps make for a solid score at the end of the game. Food is always a winner lol..

Use your leash in the car with Titian.. if the person doesn't look out of place tell him to leave it.. if he keeps it up correct him with the leash. I went thru this with Tucker, it can turn into a problem.

I hear ya...baby steps. I want Titan to succeed. Titan is always on leash while in the car. Good tip to use the leash, I usually roll up the window and tell him to leave it.

 

[Maks]

Well, he knows his basics....sit, down, stand, stay, come and shake. He has also been taught to wait....which I use when feeding--he "waits" for his food, or if leaving the house he has to "wait" while going through the door so that I go out first, and then wait again as I lock up.

My concerns are that he goes into, what I call his "zones" where he does not want to be bothered. If one person is petting him and another person comes up to pet him too...he will growl at that other person. He wants NOTHING to do with strangers....even meaning company in our home. If they look at him, he will growl. If they attempt to touch him--which they are told not to touch him, but not everyone listens--he will growl and run away. This is where I am guilty....I used to take him to work with me and if he didn't want to be bothered by someone that came into my office he would growl and come behind my desk. I then would pet him and tell him it was ok which I learned later only made his situation worse.

On walks he is terrified of anything out of place....say cars parked in places they normally aren't. There are a couple new houses being built in the neighborhood and the sounds of the construction scare him really bad. He's tried to dart away when he heard a drill start up. Once we were walking and a guy was getting into the trunk of his car. He saw the guy and was a little uneasy, but ok. Then the trunk slammed shortly after we passed and he darted. About took me down....was not ready for that.

The majority of the time he really is a good dog, but I've never had a dog with any of the issues he's coming out with and that's why my search for a trainer is so important. I need someone who will not be scared of his breed and give me the advice and training that I need in order to help him. Any advice you could give is greatly appreciated!!

99% of the time a dog/owner is having a issue, the dogs o.b. is poor. The owner has either been lax on this aspect of training or the dog has never been taught any or very little. I'd also say 99% of the time the dog is a product of the owner or past owner, fears.. lack of understanding.. effort to into training the dog etc.

I don't spend a great deal of time on classifying why the dog is doing x,y or z (it is relevant to understand a solution but).. I just look for a solution to solve the issue.

I'd say crate training (controlling the dogs free time via the crate) and a serious focus on o.b. can fix a large majority of all the issues people face.

There are behavioral issues that are genetic that take specifics to correct and sometimes they are never fully corrected they are just managed and you don't put the dog in a situation where it can fail.

What's your major concerns with Maks? How's his o.b? That would be my personal starting point.

 

[joshuagough]

Down or lay is the most submissive position for a dog.. many struggle with this.

Use (1) no, then give him a few seconds to make the correct choice.. if he knows the command and doesn't do it because he's refusing you should then correct him. You shouldn't be saying "no, no, no".. what you want to happen is to cut out the physical leash correction and have that "no" be the correction. He will understand thats a marker to quit and look to you for direction.

The more correction you have to use the less effective or more "pressure" you have to apply moving forward, the dog will build up a tolerance.

Again make sure your not pushing him to quickly into distractions that will set him up to fail.

Yes, it did. Thank you!

Titan knows all of the commands and he did really well today on the drill which we have done twice today for about 10 minutes each. I will continue to do the drill throughout the day.

He did very well at the park today which I was so proud of him. There were a couple of times, he refused to lay down and I said no no no and snapped the leash. He proceeded to lay down. The lay down command is the one he is little stubborn about doing.

I will continue the drill until he does every command when asked to do them with no delay or issue.

I think my confidence improved today when doing the drills at the park and he ignored the people and focused on me.

You've been a life saver, Josh! Thank you!