How do you handle this?

[Smokeycat]

I just came across my first true pro-neuter person. She used the fact that cancer can increase if not neutered early enough (6 months) and even disregarded the study (the one on GRs) I posted because it wasn't a direct study and only showed a 5% increase if neutered early compared to intact animals. I eventually told her that we would have to agree to disagree because I was tired of her trying to get me to agree with her. I know my vet would prefer that Kryten was 'fixed' but I rarely get asked anymore and I have had other dog owners call me irresponsible but since these tend to be owners of ill behaved &/or overweight dogs they are easy to ignore. This was woman that people look to for advice about their dogs. Thankfully some of the others were more open minded.

 

[DMikeM]

Maybe this site or Dr, Beckers articles would help? Neutering NOT Org

 

[ruthcatrin]

I usually start asking them for actual numbers. "You say cancer risk increases, whats the actual figures for risk?" Very very few can give you actual numbers. Mind, that approach tends to piss them off....

 

[Smokeycat]

It's definitely an interesting read.

 

[Robtouw]

I no longer have the patience to listen, I usually say that I respect their opinion but mine is different and ask that they drop the subject.

 

[Smokeycat]

I tried again. She once again disregarded the research article because it was based primarily on retrospective epidemiological research and not a direct study that showed a direct link. I don't think she will ever be willing to change her opinions because I can't see any way to ethically get research like what she wants. Trends are not valid it must be absolute proof. I give up. There was another mastiff owner trying to back me up to.

 

[thelady_v2010]

I just tell people that I am not trying to change thier minds or convince people not to neuter, I am doing what I think is best. I have gotten some negative feedback because I said I wasn't neutering him. I said that I felt any behaviors could be trained away and that got turned into me saying I could train my dog not to go after a bitch in heat, which I never came close to saying. My trainer wants me to neuter. he said to neuter by 10 months old, before he started lifting his leg. Well, he started lifting his leg at 7 months old. I asked him if he was telling me he could not train away any negative behavior and he said he could train anything. So I said "end of discussion, then" and he has not brought it up again.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I asked him if he was telling me he could not train away any negative behavior and he said he could train anything. So I said "end of discussion, then" and he has not brought it up again.

hah, good one.

I've done similer in reference to Apollo. He's fluffy enough most people don't realize right away he's intact. They're almost always shocked when they finally notice "but he's so well behaved!" is a common response. I have to restrain myself from rolling my eyes at them, but do usually respond with something along the lines of "thats because I trained him!"

Can you train an intact dog to not go after a bitch in heat? No, but you can train him that even if there's a bitch in heat nearby he doesn't get to behave badly on leash. Its WORK, but it can be done. And once again, neutering a dog doesn't always stop him from going after a bitch in heat, I know of quite a few folks, who have an intact female and a neutered male, who have found their dogs tied during the bitch's season!

 

[thelady_v2010]

We had new neighbors move in last week. They saw Menace and wanted to meet him, so we took him over. She said she had a dog too, and brought her out. Menace was all up in her stuff. I asked right away, is she fixed? They said not yet. So, I told them Menace was not fixed either and that e need to be careful. I made Menace stop sniffing her stuff, she seemed really scared. Yesterday, my son was walking him and the husband came out to meet us and Menace. He brought her out too and she immediately laid on her back in front of him. He started sniffing her stuff again and I made him stop. Hopefully she isn't going in heat.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Did they give you an idea of how old she is?

I'll allow Apollo to sniff for a couple seconds, usually the other dog is doing the same, but then tell him to leave it, and expect him to do so. Having said that letting Menace get some exposure to an intact bitch isn't a bad thing, otherwise he'd go nuts later the first time he's introduced to one. If she's not in heat, and not about to go into heat, I find that Apollo lost his extra interest fairly quickly, that helped ALOT with getting him to learn to be polite. It also "helps" that we have an intact bitch on the property kitty corner to us. Apollo gets extra distracted when she's in heat, but he has learned that he's not allowed to drag me over there. Which doesn't mean that I trust him to not make a bee-line if he were off leash, but he has learned that he can't be a nut on leash when she's in season.

My suggestion, IF you can be sure she's not going into heat (which will require some trust in them, so take your time), allowing him some loose leash time to interact with her isn't a bad idea. Again, so that he can learn that just because she smells different from the other girls doesn't mean that she's interested. Especially at first keep him on lead, so you can redirect if he DOES try to mount.

 

[thelady_v2010]

She is about 1 year, they said. I do not know what, if anything, they know about dogs! I will just watch Menace closely. She seems VERY scared and he is not at all. My husband is way more lax than I am, so i am hoping that I am the one directing the interactions!

 

[LizB]

I'm glad you brought this up, because I was not prepared for the backlash we received for not neutering Major. After he was 2 we were prepared to do it, but there was never any need - he never marked inside the house, never "went to town" on a bed or sofa or toy, never left the property in search of a bitch in heat, never mounted our neutered male GD, never was aggressive or territorial, was a charmer in public even around unstable dogs, etc. Why put him through the risk of anesthesia?

People have been trained by the media that all dogs must be spayed and neutered, and I'm sure from the rescue/shelter perspective that would seem true, but it is not responsible owners like myself having accidental litters. We received plenty of rude comments and "shame on you" type reactions, as if it was our ego or stupidity that led us to not neuter, instead of doing what was best for the dog. I know first-hand what early neuter can do to a mastiff and I'll never do that again.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

Before Franklin, I was one of those people. Vets and others always scared me into thinking my dogs would end up with testicular cancer if I didn't rush out and have them neutered. Thanks to all you fine people and a little research, I know better now. I am still confused on whether or not the behavior changes in time after a neuter.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I am still confused on whether or not the behavior changes in time after a neuter.

Yes, no, maybe? The problem is determining BEFORE the neuter how much of a behavior is driven SOLEY by hormones, and how much of it is learned. I can tell you from my own experience just with Apollo that MOST, if not all, of those so-called "intact male dog" problems can indeed be managed and fixed with training. And I can also tell you from my own personal experience that many many neutered dogs, including many who're were neutered at a young age, STILL display those same behaviors. There are occasions where removing the hormones makes it much easier to manage a problem behavior, but not always, and not predictably.

 

[LizB]

I agree with Ruth. For an example (have seen other cases too) I had an intact, 3-yr-old BM with absolutely zero behavior problems, and a neutered male GD (neutered at about 9 months from a rescue) with an abundance of aggressive behavior problems. There is really no telling!

 

[Smokeycat]

The one that really makes me laugh now is that one of the 'reasons' I was given for neutering Jiggers early was that he wouldn't lift his leg, literally meaning he would not lift his leg to pee. If he doesn't lift his leg he won't be able to mark. I had him done at 5.5 months. At 6 months he lifted his leg and he wasn't around other males on a regular basis.

 

[ravendarat]

Ya usually when people ask about why Mufasa isnt fixed yet I tell them about inherit issues with fixing giant breeds early but I also make a point of saying things in a complicated way, I confuse them into thinking I know way more than they do then they dont question me lol. I still plan on getting Mufasa fixed I am just not sure if I should do it at 18 months or wait till 2 years.

 

[Smokeycat]

I'm not sure if I'm going to neuter Kryten anymore or not. I don't know if I want to be responsible for an intact male for the rest of his life but it would mean yet another surgery. I'll have to decide after he is all healed up. The one thing I won't do is mess with his body chemistry when his health isn't 100%.

 

[voidecho]

I keep telling people (wife included) that we'll probably get Lincoln neutered around 2 years, but unless some reason presents itself, I personally doubt we'll ever get him neutered. I don't see any benefits that outweigh the risks of surgery and potential negative effects at this point.

The worst things we've had to deal with are that walking him can be a chore because he has to stop and sniff every pole/shrub/etc and then one time he marked on a dog bed inside a friend's house.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

Another member of this forum, who is no longer here, told me that it takes at least 6 months for the testosterone to begin to decline after a male is neutered, so neutering Franklin would be pointless if any of his behaviors are hormone related.

Honestly, I don't think any of his behavior is based on hormones, so I'm not in a hurry to have it done.