Fila Brasileiro

[Duetsche_Doggen]

This has been a very interested read indeed.

This is why I loved this forum I don't feel as though I have to "lurk" everyone has a right to their opnion and it is respected accordingly. I've visted so many chats where pride, anger, and jealously got the best of people. No matter the beliefs it should be in the best interests of the breed.

 

[dogman#1]

Hey guys, Thanks! Dont get it twisted I have been part of the mud slinging from time to time...the conversations always start civil enough but there is no nice way to say that the person's dog may be not of pure blood. People love their dogs and just like their children...say anything remotely derogatory about them and they will react in a negative manner because they feel as they are being attacked...once the mud starts flying it is difficult not to fling some back, lol.

Yes, CBKC has almost switched to the CAFIN standard several times and each time it was fought off by the big name/money kennels. At the end of the day CBKC will side with the money and 5 CAFIB breeders just dont breed enough to offset what 1 CBKC breeder can put out in one year. They are not blind, they see the 15 different types on non CAFIB Filas, they know what is going on it is they just cant get past the $$$$ signs. The president of CBKC, vice persident of FCI and the biggest CBKC kennel already made it public about the insane mixed breeding going on in their club and kennels. This was PUBLISHED in the Molosser magazine yet the non CAFIB breeders do not pass this information along to their potential customers...why? if someone wants a dog that looks like what they have they are not going to care, just tell them the truth and let them make up their mind. BTW that kennel that said that (openly) is Borghetto kennel...his dogs are in most or all of the pedigrees of non CAFIB filas in the USA as he was the #1 kennel to export Filas to the states. He eventually apologized and restocked his entire kennel with CAFIB dogs. he has been labeled a traitor by non CAFIB kennels and some CAFIB kennels say that he switched sides because he is seeing the end of non CAFIB dogs in the horizen and wants to get in to CAFIN while the getting is good.

CAFIB will not "merge" with CBKC even if they adopt the CAFIB standard. One must remember that CAFIB is not just a regular club, the evaluations, strict rules and regulations and breeding practices are way above what any normal club would consider.

CBKC is part of FCI which is the biggest registry in the world (if I'm not mistaken). I doubt that they really care about being recognized by the AKC but they definitely care about being able to reach different markets. If the fila had less temperment and with its colorful history it could easily capture the minds and hearts of more fanciers throughout the world and become more mainstream... mainstream means more puppies being produced which equals more puppies being registered which equals $$$$$$$. They can give 2 craps about how they are destroying the breed as long as it makes them money. If they believe that most people are buyinf CAFIB dogs then they will gravitate towards that as they have tried to do in the past.

 

[Kelly]

Dont see the point of breeding such a spectacular dog if you aren't going to stick true to what it is supposed to be, according to what you say, Dogman.

As far as FCI goes, do they not go with the kennel club standards of the country of origin? Does this mean Brazil has two standards - one being CBCK (not sure what the CB is for) and the CAFIB? or am I completely confused.

Also, you said in an earlier post that the CAFIB was determined by a monk who visited one kennel and wrote it up based on those dogs? How do we know that kennel had a proper type?

I know the CC has had so much infighting with which standard to go by, esp in NA. as I understood it, the breeders were going for a standard that fit what they have in their kennels as opposed to the the Italian standard accepted by the FCI. As I understand it, part of the issue was that the corsos were being bred too large to fit the standard. Does it not stand to reason then that you breed the size back down to the standard accepted by the mother country? I dont want to take this too far from the Fila but there is a parallel here of course and not being a breeder or knowing any personally I find it hard to really discuss this with anyone who knows what they're talking about.

btw thoroughly enjoying this, wish we could have a Like or Agree button added to the posts...: )

 

[dogman#1]

lol, Kelly, it seems like you are getting somewhat confused by multiple different posts. Yes, if you are going to breed you should breed a dog that empompasses ALL of the things that make that breed unique not just focus on one. Everyone has their different tastes and some will go with harder temps while others will go with bigger bones and others more athleticism but each should be recognizable as the same breed and not So focused on one thing that the rest is forgotten.

Monks have absolutly nothing to do with the Fila Brasileiro breed... The Belgium monks were mentioned because they were the ones that created the black blood hound that the Non CAFIB breeders would like you to believe was one of the dogs in the initial makeup of the breed we know as the Fila Brasileiro...The black hound was callled Saint Hubert's hound and they were VERY rare in the 1200s and even rarer or non existent during the initial makeup of the Fila Brasileiro breed. Belgium monks never imported balck hounds to Brazil and they never had anything to do with the breed standard, lol.

Dr. Cruz wrote the initial standard for the Fila Brasileiro w/o full knowledge of the breed. he was sent to view dogs from a kennel and write the standard based on that...He himself said that he had no real knowledge of the Fila at that time. After mpore research and viewing more examples he wrote the CAFIB standard and told the now CBKC that he was wrong and that the standard he had written originally was incorrect. Since then the CBKC standard has changed multiple times (it changes to match the dogs that is being created by the $$ kennels instead of them creating to match the standard) The CAFIB standard has remained un changed since.

---------- Post added at 02:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 PM ----------

oh and yes there are 2 recognized standards... they used to be pretty identical but now they are seperating quite a bit..what is more important is not really the standard but how it is interpreted...like was said before a basset hound and a neopolitan mastiff appear to fit the CBKC standard as a Fila brasileiro depending on the imagination of the person reading it.

 

[dogman#1]

oh and yes there are 2 recognized standards... they used to be pretty identical but now they are seperating quite a bit..what is more important is not really the standard but how it is interpreted...like was said before a basset hound and a neopolitan mastiff appear to fit the CBKC standard as a Fila brasileiro depending on the imagination of the person reading it.

 

[Ghostsword]

Great thread, truly a find, and I can see that you guys know what you are talking about.

I am Portuguese and I would like to add something to the mix.

When the portuguese had slave colonies in brazil, in mid 1700's all the way to late 1880's, they needed dogs to control the population, hunting and slave capture.

The dogs weren't big, but they were ferocious and able to take not only a man but also to accompany hunters and protect the homestead. Those where the first filas. Fila come from the verb filar, which is to catch, grasp or clutch.

The job of the fila was to catch and old, be it large game or people.

Now one of the three types of dogs that were shipped to Brazil by the landowners where Castros Laboreiros, Serras da Estrela and Portuguese Pointers.

Serras are large dogs, lanky and furry, but we also have them with short hair. Castros are ferocious guards, brindle to fawn. Portuguese pointers and Podengos are used on boar hunting. Mix the lot and you get a Fila.

When slavery was abolished in brazil, early 1900's the ranchers started to deal with Cattle, and the innate characteristics of the Fila predecessors to deal with Cattle and guard the homestead came to the fore. Prey drive is taken out, these are dogs that must live on a farm and able to not kill the chickens and other dogs, attach to the family and keep intruders at bay.

Nowadays the Filas are being mixed with other breeds to melow some traits, but one should keep to the what the breed is used for.

Black filas are not that wanted, they would overheat. Fawn are preferable, but sometimes you see light brindle on the farms. The farmers couldn't care less for the color but natural selection sorted that out.

Hope that helps.


___________________________

 

[dogman#1]

Yep, pretty acurate. The exact dogs used for the make up of the breed is not fully known because, as said, it was natural selection and there for could be anything in there. obviously who ever populated the area brought dogs from their home country..

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Unfortunately Kelly it happens and continues to happen to dog breeds everywhere the GSD is the best example out there. Check out the GSD "standard" by Max Von Stephanitz and look at the dogs today.

The FCI is not a registry but a governing body of registry in European countries, each member of the country regulates its own breed clubs, records, and judges.

I don't know much about the CAFIB and the CBCK as I had not had the chance to research it.

Politics again, people need to understand that just like people there are diversities in dog breeds as well, personally I find strange to process dogs like their in an assembly line.

I wish we could rep a posts too!

 

[Tiger12490]

There are documented picture and written testament that black fila have been around for atleast 100 years but there mixed? There are just 2 different forms of Fila..... Some breeders of black fila have mixed recently but so have the farmers out in Brazil who mix there fila with the other farm dog mutt they have.. Our dogs are as different as APBTs and AMSTAFFS but you can't tell me my dog is mixed and then tell me yours isn't. And old school fila as I like to call them have little to no prey drive are to sharp for suburban life if you enjoy having a life. There farm dogs and the modern fila was made for suburban/urban life they can be controlled they can be used in tracking and hunting and sport unlike the other. Well unless you always go by yourself. There's nothing wrong with that but that's not what I was looking for I wanted to beable to control my dog.
TAPD on my skyrocket

 

[dogman#1]

Tiger...at least you are saying that they are different...most say they are the same. There are no written testaments that there were black Filas as long as 100 years what there are is countless pictures of black dogs that are said to be old black filas...they have all been debunked...One of my favorites is supposedly from a duke of Austria with a black dog sitting by him...first off the dog is obviously not a fila but looks more like a big labrador, doesnt look like anything that anyone has produced and labeled a Fila, not even the non CAFIB folks...then they claim that the picture was taken at a specific yea which wouldve made the actual person 5 yrs old when the picture was taken when it is a full grown man. then the other famous picture of a black dog standing on a mountain...very old picture and you could barely see anything but the non CAFIB folks state that the dog (although it looks like whippet) is actually a Fila...There arent 2 filas there is only one..well there is the fila san miguel as well...we call that "the other fila". If the fila has no prey drive and is uncontrollable for some then they shouldnt have made "another" Fila to compensate for their inability to control it, they shouldve went for another breed...BTW your statement is incorrect...there are videos and pictures of CAFIB Filas hunting boar and they are quite capable. American bulldogs, especially old southern whites may have suited your needs better...pretty protective, many are not DA, great hunters and plenty controllable. One guy has had his Fila certified as a Cadaver dog, so your theory that they cant track or work is also flawed. The story that there is no such thing as a "pure" Fila is a fairly new one but I have heard it before...it became so impossible to say that their filas were pure (because the lack of consistency) that they just started saying that there is no such thing as a pure Fila...the truth is that there is and has been, just been under the CAFIB standard.. yes farmers let their dogs mixbreed but they are not CAFIB dogs either at that point they are still registerable under CBKC but will not pass a CAFIB evaluation (CBKC does not require evaluation just papers). Just because the non CAFIB folks have a hard time keeping consistency doesnt mean that others havent done it...it is really easy, stick to one breed and the dogs will actually look and act the same...without consistency there is no breed...in that point you are correct.

 

[Tiger12490]

This is like talking politics haha I don't even necessarily believe one is better than the other. And I said the older style can do many things..... solo..... Cadover are dead I work and live around living people......I need a dog that I could control around them.... I didn't get another breed because I wanted what the fila has to offer. There is just something about a fila that is different.... from there doctor jekyl and Mr Hyde to just there floppy way of just being themselves if you own a good fila I'm not even sure why you asked that question...... I wanted a fila because there amazing

TAPD on my skyrocket

 

[Tiger12490]

TAPD on my skyrocket

 

[dogman#1]

Tiger...you said the farm fila could not do some of the stuff that "modern filas" can do...there is only one fila and that IS the farm fila. anything bred differently or for different purposes is something else but for whatever reason still called a Fila by some people. That is a nice picture...it is a dog like creature, is it a fila? a lab? a great dane? is it black? brindle? there appears to be a chain link fence back there..is this picture even that old or is this another one of those photoshpped things we have been seeing lately? as you can see these are the type of pictures that the non CAFIB folks put up but what the hell is it? I have no idea and anyone looking at this picture could not assume that it is a fila.

 

[Kelly]

lol, Kelly, it seems like you are getting somewhat confused by multiple different posts. Yes, if you are going to breed you should breed a dog that empompasses ALL of the things that make that breed unique not just focus on one. Everyone has their different tastes and some will go with harder temps while others will go with bigger bones and others more athleticism but each should be recognizable as the same breed and not So focused on one thing that the rest is forgotten.

Monks have absolutly nothing to do with the Fila Brasileiro breed... The Belgium monks were mentioned because they were the ones that created the black blood hound that the Non CAFIB breeders would like you to believe was one of the dogs in the initial makeup of the breed we know as the Fila Brasileiro...The black hound was callled Saint Hubert's hound and they were VERY rare in the 1200s and even rarer or non existent during the initial makeup of the Fila Brasileiro breed. Belgium monks never imported balck hounds to Brazil and they never had anything to do with the breed standard, lol.

Dr. Cruz wrote the initial standard for the Fila Brasileiro w/o full knowledge of the breed. he was sent to view dogs from a kennel and write the standard based on that...He himself said that he had no real knowledge of the Fila at that time. After mpore research and viewing more examples he wrote the CAFIB standard and told the now CBKC that he was wrong and that the standard he had written originally was incorrect. Since then the CBKC standard has changed multiple times (it changes to match the dogs that is being created by the $$ kennels instead of them creating to match the standard) The CAFIB standard has remained un changed since.

---------- Post added at 02:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 PM ----------

<smacks forehead> Doh!! Got it now!

Tiger, it seems to me from what you are saying, that you dont really want the true type Fila, which from what I've learned so far is this CAFIB. With the most respect, I have to ask why you want a Fila then? To me, this would be like saying you want a Border Collie but one that can live in the city, just breed the drive out of it. If Im mistaken, please forgive.

 

[Tiger12490]

I never said that is the true type fila for I believe my fila is a fila true to her type but just as there are different types of boxers within there standard they are still the same breed...... (I say boxer because they are the most diverse pure bred dog) ...... I see your confused and that you don't understand..... There are 2 different types of Fila bred to live in different places and bred for slightly different reasons one for more farm protection the other for more of a house guard Bred for more trainability and drive... Bully kuttas, cane Corso, boxers, even pitbull have types within there breeds as well as many other breeds

TAPD on my skyrocket

 

[chuckorlando]

I would assume Tigger wanted a good Fila Temp but not excessivly hard temp. Fact no dog matches th fila temp. When I say temp I mean loyalty, distrust of strangers, nerves, speed, and agility in one package. I cant speak on new or old, mixed, inbreed, or what truely makes up the fila gene wise. But I know Kona is unlike other dogs that I've had.

Second one would also have to assume the cafib theory is the correct theory. I'm not saying it is or aint. But clearly many folks believe it's not. To them folks, they do have a true Fila. Aint a word one someone could say to me to make me think Kona aint a Fila. Could there be something else in there some where to give the black coat? Absolutly. Short of a dna test compared to dna from the orig fila's, not what any one claims to be, but what actualy was here hundreds of years ago, there may be no way to tell. But that holds true with any dog you buy any where. We like to trust a breeder and should, but fact is, that dog is what ever they tell you it is.

Fact is though, when you got a breed than both sides say they dont haave a clue what all makes the breed up, it's hard to say everything but that.

 

[Tiger12490]

Chuck you hit it right on the head

TAPD on my skyrocket

 

[allsierra123]

My dad raised american bulldogs while we were growing up. That is one breed no one can decide where it came from or what all is in its breed. And most of them you get are so mixed and mottled in the same litter out of two dogs of the same type within the same breed you can get a variance of size shape and conformation. just look at the johnson and scott lines there both american bulldogs but they are very different in temp and in size and ability. It looks like the same holds true for a fila. In the old days they bred dogs for a purpose if a dog fell into those perimeters thats what they were called. Take bulldogs and pit bulls if they were bred for catch or fighting 100 years ago thats what people called them. Go a little further back they simply called them bull and terrier. Sad to say but most of the problems come when people breed for look conformation and type and try to pigeon hole or cookie cutter a breed. When they should be working them and basing there program on the dogs ability to do what it was intended to do. If there not working dogs I dont think they have business being bred. be it hunting livestock or protection work. If your looking for anything else they are a blue million mutts in the world that will bark aty strangers and make great pets. LOL thats just my opinion though I grew up in the south and it was a common occurrence to cull a dog if it didn't hunt guard or herd. We had no room on the farm for pets.

 

[dogman#1]

seems you guys are missing some key points. You are comparing apples to oranges here...Doesnt matter what breeds made up the dog (we can only assume what made up any breed becuase unless you were there you just dont know), what we do know is what the breed looks like now. You guys are talking types Versus breeds...a dalmation is not a type of dog it is a breed of dog, a sled dog isnt a breed of dog it is a type of dog...get it? see, sled dogs could be any dog of any size that was bred for the sole purpose of stamina, strenght and endurance...that doesnt describe a breed but a job description. Now if they realized that a specific group of dogs were excelling at sled pulling and they kept breeding those together, generation after generation to the point that they consistantly produce a dog that has exactly the same characteristics as the ones before and after...we are not just talking about the ability to pull a sled we are talking about character, temperament, size, shape, etc...then you can call that dog a breed. Without consistency YOU DO NOT HAVE A BREED. Does anyone know what went into the breed of the German Sherherd? in what percentages? no? well we do know it is a breed, right? what if I started breeding German shepherds that have curly hair and only 10" tall...I will call them German Shepherds, i will even find a registry that will allow me to register them as german Shepherds. i will say that years before the german shepherd was actually mixed with a rare, ancient and now extinct crappydoodle...I will show you pictures of a curly haired dog and tell you it is the original GSD...well that is proof, right? is it just a different type of GSD that was bred to herd mice in your living room instead of sheep in the fields...or is it a mutt? you decide. CAFIB Filas are the ONLY dog named Fila Brasileiro that are consistant, yes there are slight (and I mean slight) variations..some bloodlines are a lil smaller, a lil harder a lil bigger head but not so much that you wouldnt be able to see right away that they are the same breed. go to 2 different non cafib kennels and find 2 dogs that look alike...good luck. So for those that believe the story that there are two types, good luck. and I hope that you ended up with the type you like....

---------- Post added at 10:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 PM ----------

I'M sorry but I have to say this again as it doesnt seem to be sinking in........If your "breed" does not breed consistent then you DO NOT HAVE A BREED, you have a dog that some person thought was good enough to breed to another dog...Im not saying that the breeder jerked you on purpose, most of the time they are less educated then the buyers about the breed...they got sold a dog, it has papers and they love it so it must be good enough to breed, right? papers are worthless folks, they are only as good as the breeders and wherever they got their dogs from. bring that argument about types to even the non CAFIB breeders in brazil and they will laugh at you. they do not deny the mixed breeding, they say it happened but it is time to move on...the Americans are the only ones holding on to that insane story of different filas for different jobs, no mixed breeding just different dogs in each litter...if you dont believe that the mixed breeding happened even from the breeders that your dogs bloodlines come from then you are just blind! love your dog but not so blindly.

 

[dogman#1]

I'M sorry but I have to say this again as it doesnt seem to be sinking in........If your "breed" does not breed consistent then you DO NOT HAVE A BREED, you have a dog that some person thought was good enough to breed to another dog...Im not saying that the breeder jerked you on purpose, most of the time they are less educated then the buyers about the breed...they got sold a dog, it has papers and they love it so it must be good enough to breed, right? papers are worthless folks, they are only as good as the breeders and wherever they got their dogs from. bring that argument about types to even the non CAFIB breeders in brazil and they will laugh at you. they do not deny the mixed breeding, they say it happened but it is time to move on...the Americans are the only ones holding on to that insane story of different filas for different jobs, no mixed breeding just different dogs in each litter...if you dont believe that the mixed breeding happened even from the breeders that your dogs bloodlines come from then you are just blind! love your dog but not so blindly.