dominant female dog aggression

[Nik]

Kahlua had been the dominant dog in our home since the first day we brought her home when she was a tiny puppy and Diesel the much bigger brother at 2 years old.

Diesel has no problem being submissive to her dominant and as a result our home has been very peaceful.

Kahlua has also had a couple doggy play date experiences that have gone well including with a friends female german shephard. The german shephard also had a submissive personality and they played well together.

The only issue we ever ran into was with my dads dog when kahlua and his dog Prudence were both puppies. They displayed some aggression towards each other over a toy. The toy was removed and things were
Calm afterwards and they just avoided one another with Diesel and prudence playing nicely.

My dad asked us recently if we could dog sit for him so we said we would have to try a play date first and if all the dogs are okay together then sure.

It did not go well.

The second he brought prudence over her and Kahlua both immediately reacted and threw themselves at each other with snarls etc. For her part it seemed kahlua was not trying to injure but was trying to assert dominance. My dads dog on the otherhand was trying to injure. We were right there and separated them quickly but not before kahlua got a cut on her cheek.

Prudence kept struggling to attack. Kahlua allowed herself to be pulled away and was happy to go inside away from it all.

So we decided to see how diesel and prudence did. Diesel pretty much ignored her and went to greet my dad. Prudence then launched herself at diesel who tried to run from her and roll over and did not fight back. She managed to rip his ear pretty badly before we could pull her off. No stitches needed but it was quite bloody.

After that we brought diesel in and let my dad know we could not dog sit for him.

I have no doubt after the visit that my dads dog has dog aggression issues. He said that the trainer he just started going to wont even allow him into group classes until he gets a muzzle and apparently she has people aggression too (though not with me as i was able to pet her and ruffle her ears, kiss her face etc to my dads surprise). He told us after that she had attacked other people and he has even had to talk to animal control about her due to complaints. So clearly his dog needs some work and has issues.

But... kahlua also was definitely an instigator. Despite how quickly everything went down I am pretty sure Kahlua growled first. She did lunge and that is what started the first incident.

I have never had an issue with kahlua and any other dog. But we also havent been exposed to many other dogs and all the other dogs she has been around have been submissive.

Was this an alpha female on alpha female issue? Was it a specific personality conflict? Was it because neither kahlua nor prudence are fixed? In other words I am very concerned about whether this is a sign that dog aggression will be an issue for Kahlua going forward.

Diesel behaved admirably and was an angel despite the attack on him. But I have no doubt that Kahlua would never have backed down if we hadnt separated and put her away. The only good thing I did see in kahlua is that she was willing and cooperative with us pulling her away and she was eager to go inside and be done with the incident.

In any case I signed Kahlua up for some formal lessons. Her first few lessons will be private and I will discuss the incident with our new trainer. He came highly recommended and I have no doubt he is well equipped to help us figure this out.

His first meeting with Kahlua went extemely well and he was very surprised and happy with how much she already knows remarking on the good strong foundation we have given her. He is going to help us with her fear of weird noises, solidify her training in high distraction environments and also help us with scent work, agility training and prep for the cgc test. After her first few sessions diesel will be joining her with him so we can solidify and bomb proof his training also

In the meantime in the after math of yesterdays fights I have been lavishing attention and love on both and lots of training in the backyard. Both are happily snoring at my side as I write this because I exhausted them with all the work.

The injuries to both are also healing up nicely. Kahluas was minor and closed up quickly. Diesels is closed now but i am keeping a close eye on it.

Here are some pics that the new trainer took of kahlua on their first meeting.

 

[Bailey's Mom]

Wow! Oh Nik, I am so sorry that this happened to you and to Kahlua and Diesel. Good Boy, Diesel! And, especially Good Girl Kahlua, for leaving the field of battle and obeying your mom and dad.

Nik, you know I know about dominant females....(Bella), but there is a difference, a big difference, Kahlua listens and obeys. Still, peace always reigned in our house because Bella was the boss, Bailey was her acolyte (learning the way of dog) and Hudson was the bratty little brother that they ganged up on. "There Can Be Only One!" There is peace where there is a clear line of authority. AND, in my humble opinion, there is no way to have two dominant dogs in one house. I know that leaves your father out in the cold, but facts are facts.

Now, your poor babies need a lot of love and understanding. Kahlua's poor beautiful face and Mr. Diesel's poor ear....horrible. Love them up for me.

 

[Nik]

Wow! Oh Nik, I am so sorry that this happened to you and to Kahlua and Diesel. Good Boy, Diesel! And, especially Good Girl Kahlua, for leaving the field of battle and obeying your mom and dad.

Nik, you know I know about dominant females....(Bella), but there is a difference, a big difference, Kahlua listens and obeys. Still, peace always reigned in our house because Bella was the boss, Bailey was her acolyte (learning the way of dog) and Hudson was the bratty little brother that they ganged up on. "There Can Be Only One!" There is peace where there is a clear line of authority. AND, in my humble opinion, there is no way to have two dominant dogs in one house. I know that leaves your father out in the cold, but facts are facts.

Now, your poor babies need a lot of love and understanding. Kahlua's poor beautiful face and Mr. Diesel's poor ear....horrible. Love them up for me.

Thanks! Ya we let him know he is going to have to find other arrangements for dog sitting. I am just worried about whether it may be an issue for Kahlua in other instances (like when her group classes start). Hopefully not. Hopefully it was a case of us being on her territory and being faced with another dominant female. Hopefully out and about she doesn't feel the need to assert her dominance over random dogs. But, we will definitely be talking to her trainer about it in depth.

There was also nothing scarier then seeing blood drawn from my two babies. They have never been cut or hurt like that! I mean when she had baby teeth Kahlua made lots of teeny little cuts but they weren't huge gaping wounds that bled. They were annoying baby teeth casualties.

And then today my dad has the odacity to text me asking if I am going to have Kahlua trained to not attack other dogs! Like she is some vicious killer that goes around attacking every other dog she sees. Sighs. His dog didn't get a single cut, scrape, injury at all. So ya I am going to address it with my trainer because I want to make sure both my dogs are bomb proof and have every advantage I can give them to be the best dogs possible. But, for some reason it really puts my hackles up when my dad asks like that. So understanding that it makes me feel defensive and aggressive I have chosen to not respond to his text. At least not until it doesn't make me want to growl and show my teeth. When I can respond calmly with a cool head I will do so.

I also find it more than a little funny that my dad and every other relative I have is terrified of Diesel. They think he is sooo big and scary and he is the one that would never fight back. He is such a peaceful gentle soul. Everyone goes ga ga over cute little Kahlua but she is the one that won't take any crap but I do want to work on lessening that reaction. I don't want her to engage even when confronted with a dominant aggressive female. So ya we have a little work to do. And I am just hoping it isn't a bigger issue then it currently seems.

 

[Bailey's Mom]

Thanks! Ya we let him know he is going to have to find other arrangements for og sitting. I am just worried about whether it may be an issue for Kahlua in other instances (like when her group classes start). Hopefully not. Hopefully it was a case of us being on her territory and being faced with another dominant female. Hopefully out and about she doesn't feel the need to assert her dominance over random dogs. But, we will definitely be talking to her trainer about it in depth.

There was also nothing scarier then seeing blood drawn from my two babies. They have never been cut or hurt like that! I mean when she had baby teeth Kahlua made lots of teeny little cuts but they weren't huge gaping wounds that bled. They were annoying baby teeth casualties.

And then today my dad has the odacity to text me asking if I am going to have Kahlua trained to not attack other dogs! Like she is some vicious killer that goes around attacking every other dog she sees. Sighs. His dog didn't get a single cut, scrape, injury at all. So ya I am going to address it with my trainer because I want to make sure both my dogs are bomb proof and have every advantage I can give them to be the best dogs possible. But, for some reason it really puts my hackles up when my dad asks like that. So understanding that it makes me feel defensive and aggressive I have chosen to not respond to his text. At least not until it doesn't make me want to growl and show my teeth. When I can respond calmly with a cool head I will do so.

I also find it more than a little funny that my dad and every other relative I have is terrified of Diesel. They think he is sooo big and scary and he is the one that would never fight back. He is such a peaceful gentle soul. Everyone goes ga ga over cute little Kahlua but she is the one that won't take any crap but I do want to work on lessening that reaction. I don't want her to engage even when confronted with a dominant aggressive female. So ya we have a little work to do. And I am just hoping it isn't a bigger issue then it currently seems.

You are on it like white on rice and I have no doubt that the trainer and your intense desire to make sure this is the exception and not the rule will bear good fruit. I wish more people would resort to well trained professionals when aggression issues surface.

Nik, it's the strike lest you be struck philosophy that so many people use today....let him calm down and let him see that you are not blaming him or his dog....it just is what it is. Added and perhaps the primary issue is that this was home turf for Kahlua and she expects respect. Your father's hopes were dashed for an easy out for the dog sitting...he spoke out of turn. Forgive him and forget it...peace is better. Just...to be on the safe side, no more play dates. These girls have a grudge match now.

 

[Nik]

You are on it like white on rice and I have no doubt that the trainer and your intense desire to make sure this is the exception and not the rule will bear good fruit. I wish more people would resort to well trained professionals when aggression issues surface.

Nik, it's the strike lest you be struck philosophy that so many people use today....let him calm down and let him see that you are not blaming him or his dog....it just is what it is. Added and perhaps the primary issue is that this was home turf for Kahlua and she expects respect. Your father's hopes were dashed for an easy out for the dog sitting...he spoke out of turn. Forgive him and forget it...peace is better. Just...to be on the safe side, no more play dates. These girls have a grudge match now.

I totally agree. No more play mates with his dog with either of my dogs. I don't know if his dog would try to attack my Diesel again and I don't want to put him through that. As for Kahlua she gets no play dates with anyone but Diesel until after we have worked with the trainer for a bit and have his opinion as to whether we can try her with other dogs (not my dad's though).

 

[DennasMom]

Hmmm... I could easily say this was Kahlua recognizing unstable energy, and growling a warning to you and Diesel that the strange dog needed to be kept away... and the strange (guest) dog didn't take that acknowledgment kindly.

I would immediately take Kahlua out on some test runs to places where you know other on-leash dogs are, and just gauge her reactions from a safe distance - give her praise for supervising quietly and walking away - which you must already do, since she was ready to 'let it go' when you stepped in.

That she did 'let it go' tells me she is NOT aggressive, but protective and assertive. Not bad traits at all. But, good to be aware of, to know that you need to be on top of things when question marks enter her territory.

That Diesel rolled over for the unstable dog suggests he also recognized her instability and didn't want to egg her on (and trusted you to get her back under control). Sorry about his ear. Ears are TERRIBLE bleeders. Hope it heals up quickly!

Bummer you can't help your Dad with dog-sitting... sounds like he needs a wake-up call about his dog, though, too... hopefully he'll get her straightened out a bit, but I doubt she'll be a doggie-day-care dog at anytime in her life. LOL.

 

[Nik]

Hmmm... I could easily say this was Kahlua recognizing unstable energy, and growling a warning to you and Diesel that the strange dog needed to be kept away... and the strange (guest) dog didn't take that acknowledgment kindly.

I would immediately take Kahlua out on some test runs to places where you know other on-leash dogs are, and just gauge her reactions from a safe distance - give her praise for supervising quietly and walking away - which you must already do, since she was ready to 'let it go' when you stepped in.

That she did 'let it go' tells me she is NOT aggressive, but protective and assertive. Not bad traits at all. But, good to be aware of, to know that you need to be on top of things when question marks enter her territory.

That Diesel rolled over for the unstable dog suggests he also recognized her instability and didn't want to egg her on (and trusted you to get her back under control). Sorry about his ear. Ears are TERRIBLE bleeders. Hope it heals up quickly!

Bummer you can't help your Dad with dog-sitting... sounds like he needs a wake-up call about his dog, though, too... hopefully he'll get her straightened out a bit, but I doubt she'll be a doggie-day-care dog at anytime in her life. LOL.

She does fine on leash near other dogs (so far) when we go on walks or to the pet store or on errands. She doesn't really react to them at all. Doesn't seem eager to meet them or afraid or anything else. No growling. She hasn't been off leash around very many dogs aside from a handful of family/friends dogs who also have interacted with no issues with her. The only dog that has been an issue so far is my dad's.

She does have a tendency to resource guard with Diesel but we have been working on that a lot and it has improved leaps and bounds since the beginning. Occasionally she will growl at him if he tries to take a bone from her but a stern no typically puts an immediate stop to the guarding and she will even give him the bone now when we do that. If she gives it up as a result of the correction we usually take it back for her after letting him have it for a few minutes so she realizes that she won't lose it forever.

I just worry because I know she is dominant and I know she has shown the aggression before with the resource guarding (never biting though) and now the incident with my dad's dog as well.

I do think you may be right that it is more her being Protective and Assertive rather than Aggressive.

And yes that bleeding ear was terrifying. There was so much blood. It is all good and healed up now though.

My dogs both seem just fine now and if anything seem even more trusting and obedient of me after all of this. I guess I proved to them I can protect them in a scary/dangerous situation.

 

[Boxergirl]

Just a few things I wanted to mention. When I was active in boxer rescue, we would not place a female dog in a home that had another female. Too many experiences with the dogs fighting. Also Kahlua is just coming off a heat. They're usually much more temperamental at that time. Keep in mind that many females also decide that they don't care for other dogs, either "outside" dogs or just in general, after they reach maturity. I have found that when females fight, they're more serious about it. They also don't really seem to change their minds after the fight is over. The worst fights I've seen have been between bitches.

 

[Nik]

Just a few things I wanted to mention. When I was active in boxer rescue, we would not place a female dog in a home that had another female. Too many experiences with the dogs fighting. Also Kahlua is just coming off a heat. They're usually much more temperamental at that time. Keep in mind that many females also decide that they don't care for other dogs, either "outside" dogs or just in general, after they reach maturity. I have found that when females fight, they're more serious about it. They also don't really seem to change their minds after the fight is over. The worst fights I've seen have been between bitches.

I had also been thinking about the female to female dog dynamic though she was totally accepting of my friend's GSD who is a female (although a fixed female, and a submissive female at that).

I feel like everything was against Kahlua and Prudence (my dad's dog) getting along. Both are unfixed, both female, both dominant personalities. And as you said Kahlua is reaching maturity so her opinion of other dogs may be changing. Thankfully she seems to love Diesel as much as she ever did. And thankfully Diesel is sweet and submissive so that dynamic hopefully won't change ever.

I am also worried about whether being so assertive and protective will make it so she can't pass CGC or work as a service dog for me. She seems better at predicting my asthma attacks than Diesel. She's just a natural.

I guess we just have to work with her (and Diesel too though on different stuff) and see how it goes. It's good to be aware and proactive but not helpful to think "what if... what if..." lol

Funny thing speaking of service dog stuff. I apparently have a weird condition with my eyes where they can sometimes peel themselves in my sleep or rather peel the top layer off. It can happen to anyone who has ever scratched their eye. It weakens the bond between the top layer of the eye and rest of it when it grows back. So if your eye gets dry in your sleep that top layer can randomly peel off and also reopen the original scratch. It is very painful and makes you temporarily blind in the one eye (severity depends on where the original scratch was... mine was right on my cornea so mine is severe). So my husband was teasing me that now we have to train one of them to be a seeing eye dog for me whenever this happens as well as an asthma alert dog. I told him Diesel would be better suited to be a seeing eye dog because he is bigger and I can rest a hand on his head easily from a standing position and it is easier for him to guide and support me as needed. Granted my eye site will be back to normal in a week or so (until this happens again... ugh!).

Apparently the idea of Diesel as a seeing eye dog is not so far fetched though. As he was by my side the instant this eye thing happened. Trailed along side me as I stumbled to the bathroom to figure out what was in my eye (nothing as the doctor let us know later since it was this weird condition).

 

[Boxergirl]

I think that formal training is going to be really important for you and Kahlua. She doesn't have to like other dogs. What a service dog has to do is ignore them. That's the entire goal for us right now with Jess' Otis. We have him in his service dog vest and work in the stores on basic obedience and focusing on her when there are distractions. Distractions being small ESA dogs, small children, and over zealous adults. He's only five months, but he's doing really well. I would suggest really upping the focus work with her. She knows basic obedience, so focusing on you is paramount. I would also suggest calling to see what stores would be open to you bringing a service dog in training shopping with you. We honestly haven't had anyone tell us that Otis wasn't welcome. He wears a service vest and we carry a "diaper bag" in case of any accidents - which he hasn't had in ages. We also make sure they know that he's not a service dog yet, just in training. They have every right to refuse to let him in at this point.

I'm so sorry to hear about your eye! I've never heard of that before. I sure hope it heals quickly for you.

 

[Nik]

I think that formal training is going to be really important for you and Kahlua. She doesn't have to like other dogs. What a service dog has to do is ignore them. That's the entire goal for us right now with Jess' Otis. We have him in his service dog vest and work in the stores on basic obedience and focusing on her when there are distractions. Distractions being small ESA dogs, small children, and over zealous adults. He's only five months, but he's doing really well. I would suggest really upping the focus work with her. She knows basic obedience, so focusing on you is paramount. I would also suggest calling to see what stores would be open to you bringing a service dog in training shopping with you. We honestly haven't had anyone tell us that Otis wasn't welcome. He wears a service vest and we carry a "diaper bag" in case of any accidents - which he hasn't had in ages. We also make sure they know that he's not a service dog yet, just in training. They have every right to refuse to let him in at this point.

I'm so sorry to hear about your eye! I've never heard of that before. I sure hope it heals quickly for you.

That's great that Otis's training is going so well. A good sign at that age too!

I had also never heard of the condition before but it makes sense because I kept waking up in the middle of the night randomly thinking stuff was in my eye and in pain. Turns out aside from the first time when my eye got the initial scratch it was just this weird condition. Now my husband is teasing me and calling me "onion eye"

 

[Nik]

So my dad just texted me that his dog, Prudence, bit him three times on their walk today. Two of the bites were serious enough to draw blood. Apparently when she saw some other people she got excited and when he restrained her and stopped her from running to them she bit him.

I reiterated to him that he needs to do training (he has only been to one session so far) and that if his current trainer isn't equipped to deal with behavioral issues then he needs to find one who has some experience that can guide him.

Prudence is not a bad dog. I was able to interact with her when she was here (after we put our dogs away). without any issue. I was able to pet her, handle her, etc. He was surprised by my interaction with her and even remarked "Wow you are brave." I was simply acting confidently and non-threatening with her and she responded to that in a positive way. Most the other people he brings her around are afraid of her because of how high energy she is. She is a cattle dog. If people try to run from her quickly or back up too fast she will try to herd them (nip at their ankles). When she was younger I saw her do this to one of his friends who is scared of her. At our house when Sean was walking away she tried to do it. Sean reacted appropriately he turned around grabbed a toy from the ground and gave it to her to redirect. It worked great. I have confidence that her issues related to people can be resolved with training and mental and physical exercise. She is a working breed dog. My mom had a cattle dog mix many years ago and I remember it having some of these same behavioral traits but the difference was she worked with a trainer from the get go and was able to direct that energy into training and give the dog a good foundation.

In any case it looks like Prudence is having issues with her behavior in more than just dog on dog and with strange humans at this point. He says the muzzle he ordered should arrive this weekend and then his trainer will allow him back into class. Hopefully the trainer he is seeing is equipped to help with these sorts of issues. I am planning to speak to my new trainer about it as well when we go with Kahlua tomorrow. Perhaps if his current trainer does not work out for him I can direct him to my new one.

 

[Nik]

Okay I know it has been awhile since I first made this thread but I have updates on both Kahlua and on my dad's dog Prudence.

First the good:

Kahlua is doing so well. We had been doing a lot of 1:1 dog training sessions with our trainer and I have been training with her and Diesel like crazy at home. Every single meal time is a marathon training sessions. By the end they are both grumbling at me and the floor beneath Diesel is a giant lake from the drool but feeding time is one of the best times for us to cement their knowledge and training and it works so well.

Well I also finally got brave enough to take Kahlua to a group training session. She had been doing great on walks when we pass other dogs. She just ignores them which is perfect. So I was nervous about the group training because of the incident with Prudence but we did it. And she was fantastic! She mostly ignored the other dogs. When one would get too close up behind her she would kind of look back like maybe she was thinking of asserting herself but a simple command would instantly redirect her attention and so there were no incidents at all. She was happy and engaged the entire class despite multiple distractions. It was an unequivocal success. Oh and she was so worn out after. Long long nap time.

Now the bad:

My dad's dog Prudence is not doing nearly so well. He kept delaying doing lessons. He decided he didn't like the muzzle because it was too hard to put on her. She has gone after people who pass her on walks and bit more than one person (including a kid who rode his bicycle too close to them while they were stopped at a drinking fountain (so my dad didn't see it coming quick enough to stop her lunging at the kid on the bike). Luckily not breaking any skin in any of the cases. It mostly seems to be a situation where she wants to herd whatever she comes across and also where she gets aggressive when people get too close to my dad. I pressured him to go to my trainer but he only attended one session and isn't sure he wants to do more. I am beyond frustrated with him but I can't *make* him do anything. I just really worry this is a disaster waiting to happen. And the last time I visited with him her aggression towards people being near him had grown to the point where she actually nipped at me when I hugged him. Like I said it seems like a disaster waiting to happen... I just hope I can convince him to do more training and to use the muzzle while they are learning before anything bad happens.