Dog Aggression in Household

[Siloh]

I've been gone from here for ages.

I have a probably bullmastiffXpit thing and a beagleXbasset. My boyfriend has a chi and an APBT. All four of the dogs have always lived together. The chi, bullmastiffX, and APBT were raised by us (and my beloved hound).

Last week, seemingly out of legitimately nowhere, the APBT attacked my hound, who now has many stitches. It wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been, but it was bad enough for us. Immediately, we thought, this is a bloodline/genetics thing. The APBT is 2.5 years old--perfect age to develop DA, right?

We were trying to figure out a rehoming plan, but today we just decided to eat the cost and send her to Sean O'Shea for a month. I'll hear back from The Good Dog in a day or two. Now we wait.

I have the dogs segregated, although I am allowing the APBT to interact with my mastiff mix, Hamlet, so long as both dogs are tired and calm. The APBT and my hound are both strong willed females, and there has always been tension there. I'm hoping Sean's people can help and this never happens again.


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[7121548]

I am really sorry to hear about your hound getting attacked. It sounds like a very uncomfortable home situation right now. Although I don't have experience with managing multiple dogs in a household, I did use the Good Dog Training too and have complete trust in them as trainers. My dog came back a much improved version of himself, and he had some pretty serious behavioral issues. I think you will be very pleased with their training, and how attuned they are to each individual dog's needs. It was expensive, but well worth it, in my opinion. I guess we'll be seeing your dog on their Facebook soon? Haha. Wishing you luck with everything!

 

[Siloh]

It seems like they've dealt with far worse cases of DA in pit bulls, so I'm pretty hopeful. We figure, worst case scenario, she and my hound will never be able to coexist, and we'll have an easier time rehoming a recent Good Dog grad.

We're essentially doing crate and rotate right now, but I have always said I'd never live indefinitely in a crate/rotate home. It's just too much stress on everyone.


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[Hector]

You're in good hands. I hope to see the dog on Sean's page!

 

[marke]

my opinion is it's something that needs solved at home , within (a lot of folks are going to love this) the "pack" ............... I doubt your going to send the dog away to solve it ..... maybe/hopefully I'm wrong , for the dogs sake ........... I've gone from having gamebred pits to bordeauxs , I deal with inter dog aggression almost everyday ........ just removing one of my dogs for a short period of time can lead to a tense aggressive interaction when I return it ........... when my dogs have gotten in a fight I make sure to get them back together asap , distract/redirect them , play with them together immediately after I've broken them up , and let them know they're not fighting in front of me if they try to resume .............. it's always worked for me , I've never had to get rid of one , rotate , or had one killed .....

 

[Hiraeth]

my opinion is it's something that needs solved at home , within (a lot of folks are going to love this) the "pack" ............... I doubt your going to send the dog away to solve it ..... maybe/hopefully I'm wrong , for the dogs sake ........... I've gone from having gamebred pits to bordeauxs , I deal with inter dog aggression almost everyday ........ just removing one of my dogs for a short period of time can lead to a tense aggressive interaction when I return it ........... when my dogs have gotten in a fight I make sure to get them back together asap , distract/redirect them , play with them together immediately after I've broken them up , and let them know they're not fighting in front of me if they try to resume .............. it's always worked for me , I've never had to get rid of one , rotate , or had one killed .....

This is unusual, but I strongly agree with marke. No amount of training away from your home, and away from your other dogs, is going to fix your APBT's aggression towards your female hound. I also agree that separating dogs after a negative interaction can lead to tension when they're reunited (I've seen this happen multiple times). My males can sometimes get a little posture-y with each other and if I separate, it makes it worse. If I immediately distract them with a happy voice and a game of tug, they come out of it and return to their usual happy selves.

I also don't think that any amount of training can solve genetic DA or SSA (same sex aggression). In the long run, even with a month of training (which I don't think will work), I think keeping these two dogs together in the home is likely going to cause issues unless you carefully crate and rotate.

Not trying to be a downer, just trying to be realistic. Of course still go ahead with the training if you'd like, with the notion that it will likely be unsuccessful and that the dogs' interactions after your APBT is returned should be very carefully monitored.

 

[7121548]

It seems like they've dealt with far worse cases of DA in pit bulls, so I'm pretty hopeful. We figure, worst case scenario, she and my hound will never be able to coexist, and we'll have an easier time rehoming a recent Good Dog grad.

We're essentially doing crate and rotate right now, but I have always said I'd never live indefinitely in a crate/rotate home. It's just too much stress on everyone.


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In the unfortunate case that the dogs cannot safely coexist, they will absolutely be honest with you about it. They tested my dog around their dogs and told me my dog would never be able to be hang out with other dogs because any kind of pushy behavior from another dog will likely cause him to attack. I suspect they will have you doing some training with your other dogs while the one is being boarded with them. Maybe you can ask if it's possible to bring the hound with you to the go-home sessions to see how they will do together after being reunited.

 

[Siloh]

I suspect they will have you doing some training with your other dogs while the one is being boarded with them. Maybe you can ask if it's possible to bring the hound with you to the go-home sessions to see how they will do together after being reunited.

I suspect this too.

Appreciate the honest feedback about not separating dogs after a fight, but my hound could have easily died, and I'll be honest: if the pit ever attaches to my hound again, I will not hesitate to use any method necessary to stop her. She fractured her owner's thumb and put about twelve holes in his hand when he attempted to


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[Siloh]

Sorry. When he attempted to separate them last week*


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[Siloh]

I should also add, if this is genetic and not a behavioral issue that can be fixed by training, there won't be any time for a teachable moment if she bites the chihuahua.

There was no warning. Half second of tension at 4'+ away > dog fight.


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[Hiraeth]

I should also add, if this is genetic and not a behavioral issue that can be fixed by training, there won't be any time for a teachable moment if she bites the chihuahua.

There was no warning. Half second of tension at 4'+ away > dog fight.


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I'm not a huge fan of blanket statements, but aggression is almost always a genetic issue. Unless a dog has experienced such horrendous past trauma that it has been pushed past its breaking point and into an aggressive survival mode, it's genetic. Especially with your dog being an APBT, who are known for being DA and SSA, I think you can safely bet this is genetic and it can be carefully *managed*, but never cured.

I usually am not one to suggest rehoming as a first solution. But I think that with having smaller dogs in the household that won't survive an attack, rehoming is really the best solution in this case. And rehoming a dog with a bite history is challenging, to say the least. Should you rehome her and she attacks someone or a dog in her new home, you could still be held legally liable for negligence in selling someone a known aggressive dog.

I think the risks of bringing her back into your home are far too much to ever accept, personally. Because the risk is that one of your other dogs is going to end up dead. And then your APBT will also end up dead.

 

[Siloh]

Someone criticized me for advertising the APBT for rehoming by first saying how she messed up my dog's face. My response was that I could not possibly omit, downplay, or otherwise understate the risks that would come with owning her.

Like I said, worst case scenario, she will be easier to rehome post-TGD.


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[marke]

to the right owner I doubt she's a risk ..... dog aggression doesn't translate to human aggression ..... getting bit breaking up a fight is not at all indicative of a human aggressive dog ........... most pitbulls , even dog aggressive ones , are for the most part sweet , eager to please smart dogs .......

 

[Siloh]

I agree 100%, Marke. I was responding to Hireath re: rehoming liability to future multiple dog households.


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[Siloh]

Oh, PS, the incidental human injury thing... I know she had no desire or intention to hurt her owner. I'm saying that I'm unwilling to risk another fight without professional help, because I'm not sticking my hands into the fray, and I'd be more likely to reach for a knife than a break stick if I thought my beagle's life was in danger.

Go ahead and call that a cruel thought, but this is why we've chosen to segregate until this issue is assessed by experts.


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[Hiraeth]

Oh, PS, the incidental human injury thing... I know she had no desire or intention to hurt her owner. I'm saying that I'm unwilling to risk another fight without professional help, because I'm not sticking my hands into the fray, and I'd be more likely to reach for a knife than a break stick if I thought my beagle's life was in danger.

Go ahead and call that a cruel thought, but this is why we've chosen to segregate until this issue is assessed by experts.


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If it gets to the point where you have to grab a knife to try to save your Beagle, your Beagle is going to be dead by the time you get a knife and stab the APBT enough to break up the fight. And while the APBT is being stabbed, it's likely going to continue to attack even more fiercely until it's dead. Harsh, yes, but also true.

The only way to 100% guarantee the safety of your other dogs is to crate and rotate until you rehome or euthanize.

 

[Hiraeth]

And to add, the incidental human injury... Unless the human was breaking the fight up by sticking their hands directly between the dogs, a redirect with twelve punctures and a broken finger is a lot of damage. Twelve punctures means it was likely several bites, not just one. And every accidental redirect I've seen has been a quick bite and then an 'oh s***, what did I just do?' from the dog. Twelve punctures and a fracture means that the dog bit a human multiple times with the intent of doing damage.

While I don't think that this means the dog is HA by any means, and would probably never instigate a direct bite on a human, the significant danger this dog poses of starting a fight and then damaging a human when the fight is being broken up cannot be ignored.

 

[Siloh]

It wasn't a redirect. He stuck his hands in her mouth to pry her jaws apart, and she tried to adjust her bite while he was at it.

We both keep a knife on our side all day every day, so it's not exactly difficult to access.

Regardless, I'm saying this is why we're not going to work this out "in the pack," at home, alone.

There are three "trainers" in my area. One is a dingbat, one only does PPD and other K-9 work (tracking, search/rescue etc), and the other is a hobbyist.


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[Hiraeth]

I understand, and I apologize, I'm not trying to attack you or put you on the defensive.

I just really don't think this is a training issue, or an issue training can ever solve. I just firmly believe that she should never be trusted around other dogs again because of the severity of the attack and her size and power. I understand not wanting to give up, but not wanting to give up on her means putting your other dogs at risk unless you have a permanent crate and rotate situation.

That's the last thing I can say on the subject. I really do wish you and your dogs all the best.

 

[marke]

if she's got a grip and you keep calm , you usually won't get bit , a break stick is good , or you could try getting her in a headlock and calmly choke her , dogs choke pretty easily , it works pretty well , just try to calm her down while you choke her ............. stabbing her might get you attacked .... you really need to be calm , if the dogs are of somewhat equal size , with few exceptions , imo neither is in imminent danger ........ getting a leash on her while their locked is always helpful for after they're broke up ...............