Confusions regarding Corsos!

Discussion in 'Cane Corso' started by southshore, Feb 19, 2018.

  1. BlackShadowCaneCorso

    BlackShadowCaneCorso Super Moderator Staff Member

    I am not certain if Roy doesn't test any of his dogs now or what the case is. I am only aware of a couple males that have no certification by OFA or PennHip because they were looked at as breeding potentials.

    Something that is often mis-understood in our breed is health testing is important and should be done, but that we honestly lack for a lot of "quality CC" that are healthy, correct and stable. So I don't rule dogs out that might not have outstanding scores or are even mild if I have an outstanding result in what I am looking to pair it with if the rest of the package is great. Our gene pool is still too small to be able to do that and not bottle neck in the short term. However, if choosing to do this it is imperative that anyone getting a puppy is well aware of this in advance so they can make the decision for themselves on if they want to take that risk with the breeder or not.

    The PennHip vs OFA argument will be one that no one will ever 100% agree on because there are strong supporters for each side. Understanding both ways and the pros and cons so when you are getting results from either you are educated on what they mean is the best way. One thing to not is it is not an average with OFA it is taking the lowest score given, so if 2 say excellent and one says fair the dog get the fair rating. That is what was told to me when I contacted them in regards to the results on a dog I had done (was also done PennHip).

    This breed is also a stoic breed so there are some of the nicest dogs that have failing hips that in their prime you would not know without the xray (as they age is it more apparent with arthritis setting in) and there are some dogs that have good hips that just move like shit. I doubt that is strictly a corso thing as I suspect most mastiff breeds tend to be stoic.

    While it would be nice for those in the breed to stringently test, getting those to test hips seems to be a trial. Elbows less often and hearts, I won't even get into the number that don't even bother with that. Also until lately an auscultation from a GP was sufficient to have a heart certified which can be misleading as they are not specialists and can miss things.

    There are no black and whites when it comes to messing with genetics and while we can always hope that when putting 1+1=2 we often find that mother nature has her own set of rules she plays by, and you learn to roll with the punches.
     
    Justin B. likes this.
  2. Justin B.

    Justin B. Well-Known Member

    For the OFA..back when I was into it....

    I was told its called "a pooled consensus" process. Which is not the lowest score in most cases. Has this changed ????

    According to their site it hasn't.
    Here is my understanding of the process.....
    -If the 3 opinions are ALL different they go with the low

    -In both other scenarios majority rules.

    In your example of grades of 2 excellent and one fair would result in an Excellent Grade and OFA Cert. Not fair. I took a screen shot of some more examples below. Correct me if Im wrong????


    I couldnt agree more with you on the Thin gene pool and genetic diversity though.
    Excellent point. When I released that it changed my mind on a lot of stuff.

    In some cases by keeping the gene pool so thin and limiting options you can be counterproductive and actually solidify certain health issues. Especially the major ones.
     

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  3. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    A guy named henricson did a study , about 50yrs ago , where he bred randomly pedigreed dogs in terms of unknown hip type ancestry , the study involved somewhere around a thousand dogs … when he bred moderate and severely dysplastic dogs to moderate and severely dysplastic dog he got about 70-80% moderate to severely dysplastic offspring …….. when he bred normal to normal he got like 50% normal , and like 14-18% moderate and severely dysplastic offspring …….. he also did breedings of normal to moderate and severe , near normal to near normal , and combinations like that , his results on those breeding fell in line with the first two , normal to moderate and severe , gave him something like similar amounts of normal and severe offspring , like 20-30% of each , with the remainder being near normal and normal ……….. I may be off on those exact numbers , but I’d bet I am really close , close enough that you would take away the same thoughts with the actual numbers as the numbers I used ……..

    hip dysplasia is a huge problem , every breed needs to be concerned about it . if hearts aren't a concern in cc now , they will be ........... elbows , possibly , never been a problem with my dogs ..... eyes , entropian ectropian is all i ever seen , never nothing like pra or dysplasia ..........

    I don't really know anything about the occurrence of hd in cc , but i still would guarantee it is nowhere close to the occurrence in ddb .......... american bulldogs from my experience , while being overall the most unhealthy dogs I’ve ever known , really don’t have that bad of hip type , I’ve seen quite a few pennhip in the greyhound range , I remember one in the .1’s , I think the median for the breed is like .5 ? the ones I seen seem to have a predisposition to having shallow acetabulum … …. A dog with a shallow acetabulum and excessive laxity is probably going to have a problem , which is why the ones without tight hips fall apart …….. dogs like neos , at least the ones I’m familiar with , tend to have excessive laxity , but also tend to have deep acetabulum, so technically while being dysplastic they fair pretty well ………. What is the pennhip median for CC’s ?



    I’ve had more dysplastic dogs than non-dysplastic dogs ……..




    i don't believe it's an interpretation , seeing a dysplastic hip is just seeing a picture , laxity is seeable , remodeling , osteophytes , calcification , sclerosis , acetabular depth , the acetabular rim , the weight bearing surface of femoral head , it's there to be seen ...... the problem is splitting hairs , the best solution is less categories , dysplastic , near normal and normal , so these folks aren't tripping because their dog didn't get an excellent . it's not exactly rocket science seeing an x-ray and how normal or abnormal a hip is …I seen a 20 yr old x-ray yesterday , I knew the dog as well as if I seen a pic of her ……By breeding normal and near normal hip types , my dogs hips are better than a majority of the breed , way better than what I started with or what was around when I got them … I do know the breed has made improvements through folks health testing , I’m not sure how much , I don’t pay much attention to dogs outside of dogs that affect me …… conformation breeders absolutely drag the breed down healthwise , always have , any breed I’ve known ………ofa identifies hd , pennhip predicts it . a problem with pennhip alone is that folks are pennhipping puppies , before even moderately dysplastic dogs would have developed DJD , so a dog over the ph threshold for developing oa , while being under the median , would be deemed breeedable , most folks would consider the dog non-dysplastic …….. in some breeds the median is more than double what pennhip themselves claims to be the threshold for developing oa




    There have been a bunch of “famous” Bordeauxs you couldn’t have paid me to take ……….There was very little to work with , in a very small inbred gene pool …….. I can probably name 5-6 dogs that are in everybody who owns a ddb’s pedigree , heck I’m about positive they will be ……….. not sure how inbred specific cc are , but the gene pool seems pretty large to me , most dogs in the few pedigrees I’ve seen have “unknown” within 5-6 gens and they’re in numerous countries ………….
     
  4. Justin B.

    Justin B. Well-Known Member

    There are other intensive studies that do not replicate those result or #s
    Would you be interested in taking a look at them???

    Last time I checked I think even the OFA had ABs at around 75% of them having hip dysplasia.

    The penn hip distraction index per breed uses the mean score to calculate .
    For Cane Corsos I beleive its .6

    Cane Corso's gene pool is still thin. Same dogs in most pedigrees. Even multiple times. Pedigrees overlap a lot. Which is why im cool with the Italian recovery process and adding that into the American dogs.

    Its an interpretation or medical opinion (if qualified) because even expert Vets and X ray techs differ and decent on the same X rays...

    What is your percantage for hip dysplasia from your last matured litter?
     
  5. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    absolutely ........

    I just looked , it's 35% , but we do know ofa is biased toward normal ........... I personally know more AB's and AB breeders , than I could possibly remember , I know more about their dogs than some of them do ............ allergies , elbow dysplasia , entropian , breathing disorders , ncl , ich ...... they're a study in genetic diseases , some of the working performance folks do raise some amazing dogs , the ones raising classic type dogs , there are some great ones , but they pretty much all got issues , hd not really being one ........

    I would have thought better ........... the neo in them i'd imagine helps with acetabulum depth ........ AB's pennhip on average better than them , but as I said they tend to be very shallow .....

    well I guess this is a perspective thing , the dog Vulcan out of the kennel you posted , I needed to go back at least 7-8 generations to find common dogs and then very few , i'd be interested in seeing a coi on him ? in the course of going back those 7-8 generations a lot of the dogs dropped off to "unknown" .......my last pups , their father is their grandfather and great grandfather ......... not to mention their dams side all go back to the same bitch at some point in 7-8 generations ............


    if they got a problem identifying normal , near normal , and dysplastic , and they're experts , I must be a master expert .........

    haven't x-rayed them , don't have a reason for it , yet ........ their parents , the two I kept , i'd say good and mild ...... one I didn't keep pennhipped in the .3's ....... the two I kept before that , both would be good-fair ,one of those pennhiped in the .4's . the two before that both good-fair .... the three before that two excellent -good , best I ever had or seen on a Bordeaux and the other mild ...... two before that mild and moderate , the mild bred to ofa good ........two before that both mild , two before that mild and moderate , two before that mild and severe , ofa actually did them ............

    the ofa good dog is the one I mentioned earlier as being better than any supplement I've ever tried .......
     
  6. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

  7. Tyler(God Worden)

    Tyler(God Worden) New Member

    I
    So you are saying that the old Neo and The Corz Dog or Corsi we’re not pretty much the same Dog? You think it’s misinformation? You are aware that they were working Dogs and bred for purpose and not look. The Neapolitan is The Corso from Naples area and yes has went it’s own direction but the evidence out there.
     

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