Confusions regarding Corsos!

Discussion in 'Cane Corso' started by southshore, Feb 19, 2018.

  1. southshore

    southshore Member

    She knows. I told her I shared some of her pictures she is fine with it.

    By the way sorry for the confusion. Those are two different dogs indeed. Sorry for the mix up, my bad.

    The one with the broader head is Collosus who is owned by Billie Andersen. The other one is Pisco he is owned by someone else and is shown by Billie Andersen.

    I love her dog Collosus. He is probably my favourite Corso.

    Both are Grand Champions.
    Justin B. likes this.
  2. southshore

    southshore Member

    I was asked how big he is and I just stated his height and weight. Not as an endorsement of anything, just stating the facts.
  3. BlackShadowCaneCorso

    BlackShadowCaneCorso Super Moderator Staff Member

    I understand, just best to check in case :)

    I didn't take it as an endorcement of anything. It was in regards to the discussion on standard and they weight/height that is in the standards.
  4. Justin B.

    Justin B. Well-Known Member

    Ok cool thats what I thought.

    Yeah Collosus is pretty awesome looking. I am partial to that look as well. Big dog for sure now. I had seen confirmation pics of him when younger and maybe smaller. Would love to see how he runs and works for his size now. Definitely has a wow factor to him.
    I can see why you like him so much though.
  5. southshore

    southshore Member

    Yes I know BlackShadow, just clarifying:).

    Yes I really like Collosus. There is another guy I stumbled upon on YouTube. I think he has awesome dogs too. From what he is saying, he seems to be an uncompromising, faithful to the breed-type guy. Please do check out this video and ofcourse, let me know what you think:
  6. southshore

    southshore Member

    Yes I know BlackShadow, just clarifying:).

    Yes I really like Collosus. There is another guy I stumbled upon on YouTube. I think he has awesome dogs too. From what he is saying, he seems to be an uncompromising, faithful to the breed-type guy. Please do check out this video and ofcourse, let me know what you think:

  7. BlackShadowCaneCorso

    BlackShadowCaneCorso Super Moderator Staff Member

    Roy does have some interesting dogs, he is in Mexico now but used to live in Texas. He is known more for the dogs he produces that are being worked. His wife did used to show some when they were in the US but I am not sure if there are fewer shows in Mexico or not.
  8. southshore

    southshore Member

    Yup they do look nice. Nicer still if they have the working ability he is referring to.

    One problem though.... I doubt his dogs are health tested. Any information on that?
  9. BlackShadowCaneCorso

    BlackShadowCaneCorso Super Moderator Staff Member

    You can find videos of dogs he bred, the most well known is El Mesquital's Vulcan. And you are right about the health testing, I know he used to do some of them when he lived in the US but I don't know if he is choosing to not do it in Mexico or if finding a vet that is capable of doing it is problematic.
  10. Justin B.

    Justin B. Well-Known Member

    Sometimes a health guarantee on the particular puppy you buy is more important as the buyer than health testing of the parents.
    Heath testing and Health guarantee are 2 things people often get mixed up. Cant go wrong with both though. However, I am willing to be flexible on the testing if the breeder is known to produce healthy dogs and has a rock solid health guarantee.

    I like his dogs. The dog BlackShadow mentioned is pretty accomplished at a lot of things. Think there is even an old thread here about that dog.

    I also like his honesty about how his Original dog from the orignal Ameican lines is still the best dog he has ever had. That says a lot.
  11. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    anybody who breeds dogs like these and does not check hips and hearts is somebody who shouldn't be breeding dogs at all , you'd have to question why are they ? a little experience would teach you why you need too ......... looking at some of the videos affiliated with the one posted , it is amazing how badly some of those dogs move , some actually limp . and they show it , they mustn't recognize it themselves ? some of the dogs either have a health problems or some type of debilitating conformation ..... whatever it is , some of it is blatantly obvious ......

    a health guarantee is only worth as much as the person giving its integrity ........ good luck suing someone for two grand in another state , and even more fruitless another country .......
  12. Justin B.

    Justin B. Well-Known Member

    Or you can look at the extensive studies done about hips and draw your own conclusions.
    There are studies that go through generations of pure bred dogs bred with good hips. Some of the research is totally shocking & surprising.

    Didn't know you could give hip scores from watching a video. Interesting. Lol

    The internet is a funny place.

    Dont trust the guy... but trust him if he tells you the parents have hip and heart test .... Yeah that doesn't make a lot of sense.
    Good rule of thumb dont buy an expensive dog from somebody you dont trust fully or can enforce a contract from.

    The best bet would be to Contact the actual breeder and see what he offers. Or try to find people who have bought dogs from him.
  13. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    I've had mastiffs for 29yrs , I've bred 8 generations of bordeauxs , do you know what Bordeaux hips looked like in 1990 ? they were virtually all dysplastic , there is no way you could have lasted breeding these dogs without x-raying them , you'd have a bunch of crippled junk , you'd be starting over with someone elses dogs ;) , and if whoevers dogues you started with didn't x-ray , you'd be starting over with someone elses garbage ........ I've x-rayed 20-30 dogs myself over that time period , never bred my dogs to a dog without seeing their hips first ..... the hips on my dogs today are normal , at minimum fair , many good ...... breeding hip type is no different than breeding type , it works exactly the same , if you seen enough x-rays from a family of dogs you would notice the "famly resemblance" of hip type , and be able to distinguish the different hip types , and i'm not talking dysplastic-non dysplastic , i'm referring to type physical appearance , like a dogs head type ....I can recognize my dogs x-rays from 20-30 yrs ago as easily as I recognize their heads ..... you would see the change (evolution) of type you can cause , the plasticity of genetics , it's no different than changing you dogs phenotype , it is changing phenotype ............ as far as grading hips by sight , never said I could do that , but I guarantee I can see a problem in a dogs rear 100% ........... sound rears with good conformation moves normal , anything less is lacking something ....... very few people have the years I got following dogs studying every step they take ......... the internet is a "funny" place , I've found if you stick to what you know , you can appear intelligent ............
    glen likes this.
  14. Justin B.

    Justin B. Well-Known Member

    Can you please explain the Cane Corsos that won confirmation titles, where poster and template dogs for the original clubs and registery, that had bad hips and even wound up being displastic?????????????????

    Plenty of displastic dogs with good confirmation movement in the show rings. Lol
    This is a fact.

    Plenty of Champion and Grand Champion Corsos had very bad hips too. This is known throughout the Corso community and caused much drama online back in the day.

    You can slander this guy and his dogs if you want to with X ray eyes. I think thats not fair or intelligent at all.

    The whole reason behind hip scores and grades from a medical professional is that it is way more than meets the eye....from the outside....on an internet video....

    Dogs could be stiff or sore from laying in the kennels they were taking them out of. Is that a possibility???? Lol. Not 100% sure what you are seeing.

    There also has been a huge push in preventive measures.
    Genetics is only 1 sixth of the reasons for bad hips. BUT NOBODY EVER WANTS TO TOUCH OR ACKNOWLEDGE THIS.

    Its funny too because OFA varies amongst themselves and I think its 3 medical opinions
    Which in turn
    Differ from Penn hip.
    You can have a dog be considered excellent under OFA with Cert. But it could be displastic with Penn hip method.

    Both buisnesses....hmmmmmm interesting. Gee I wonder why.

    Which test do you do Marke???
  15. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    first thing you need to do is understand what the word "dysplastic" means .......... from there you will understand that just because a dog is "dysplastic" doesn't mean they have a problem ....... problems come from why a dog is dysplastic , the reason is more important than the diagnosis ....... as far as movement in the show ring , I've seen champion dogs that moved like crap , I've seen them with obvious limps , front and rear ...... dogs are not deemed dysplastic by pennhip unless they exhibit OA in the hip extended view .............. dogs are graded in pennhip by subluxation , it is but one aspect of hip dysplasia ..... they are graded in comparison to other dogs of the same breed , median for most breeds is well above the .3 threshold for developing oa , many breeds are below the median for their breed while being well above the threshold for developing oa ............ ofa grades adult dogs on hip phenotype , subluxation , depth of acetabulum , remodeling , sclerosis , OA ......... pennhip is great information , my experience with it goes back to when it was called "Bardens technique" , gale whatever his last name is might have commercialized it , but it's Bardens theory ............ pennhip does not take into account the depth of acetabulum , I've seen obviously dysplastic dogs with extremely low pennhips ........... cornell does one called dorsolateral subluxation , dsl I believe, it's not commercial , and the best test going ...... 1/6th ? interesting figure ????? i'm not slandering this guy at all , unless he's breeding all them dogs without x-rays and heart checks , if he is , he's either a puppy miller , or clueless ........ I said 29yrs , should have been 39yrs , date the chevy bel aire behing the neo ........... I use hip extended , phenotype , on a lightly sedated dog .........
  16. Justin B.

    Justin B. Well-Known Member

    Displastic is a dog that suffers from hip dysplasia. Which is simply put is an abnormality of the hip.
    The grading and the level varies and is subjective..... even amongst the same test or standard. Which is why OFA uses 3 different Dr's opinions that vary. They average their own opinions.

    You can make up your own definitions if you want. But trust me you aren't the only one who knows what a common Mastiff health problem is.

    You flat out used the word "confirmation" when describing the rear and movement of the dog. Your words not mine. I understand you study your dogs movement a lot.

    FYI. . . Again something most people will never touch. A steady program of vitamin C or ester C can completely change the gate and symptoms of a dog with severe hip dysplasia. They have taken dogs that are lame and severely crippled and made them sprint again. Dogs that were recommended to be put to sleep if the owners couldn't afford the thousands and thousands of dollars in surgery.

    "Comparing OFA and Penn-HIP, and found that many hips that were passed by OFA actually had laxity, indicated by a high distraction index, determined by Penn-HIP! Of the hips that the OFA found dysplasia or laxity on, Penn-HIP gave all of them >0.3 index. So if the dog has hip dysplasia found by OFA, Penn-HIP agreed 100%.

    However, half of the dogs that earned an OFA score of Excellent had a distraction index >0.3 on Penn-HIP (had hip dysplasia)! Over 80% of the Good, and over 90% of the Fair hips on OFA had a distraction index >0.3 on Penn-HIP, meaning hip dysplasia! This tells us that some of the subtle dysplasia or laxity that a human can’t see in one position can be detected in the other."
    Also OFA is flawed too.
    "OFA ratings may not be as accurate as we’d like. One thing – the positioning of the x-rays may not be ideal for detecting laxity, or early dysplasia, in the hips. Having a dog lie on his back and pulling the hips straight out and down mimics how a human stands, but it is obviously not a natural position for the dog. Pulling the legs this way might actually push the femur (thigh bone) into the hip socket, masking any dysplasia!"

    Yes 1/6???? You think genetics are the only causes for bad hips? You are a well read guy. I am sure you know the answer.
    Yes other environmental factors have been attributed ( especially in mastiffs)
    5 other KEY Environmental FACTORS (Nurture)
    That we can regulate or have a big say in.
    2. Excessive body weight
    3. Excessive muscle mass
    4. hormones
    5. Actual surface the dog grows up walking on

    This was found out when 25% of pups from OFA tested parents were still coming up as having hip dysplasia.
    You pointed out some of the critiques with Penn-hip yourself.

    As well as mentioning other test and interpretation methods you find better. There are also more.
    You get where I'm going with this.....
  17. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    dysplastic is nothing more than abnormal development , not my definition , it is what it is ........ grading is subjective , but it's not rocket science . severely dysplastic and moderately dysplastic look nothing like mild , borderline , fair , good or excellent ........... fair looks nothing like excellent , borderline looks nothing like good or excellent ............borderline looks kinda like fair and mildly dysplastic , that's why they call it borderline ??? severe could be mistaken for low grade moderate , good could possibly be confused with excellent , or a high grade fair , "you get where i'm going with this" ?? red doesn't look like yellow , yellow or red doesn't look like green

    you are correct , i'm not the only one who knows the health problems of these dogs , it's why folks intent on breeding better dogs health test their dogs ....

    I guess you might have me on "confirmation" , somewhere , the I is next to O on the keyboard , you really know your spelling .........I apologize , I was wrong , i'll work on it ......

    I fed 3 generation of dogs vitamin c , ester c .................. I've used vitamin e , fish oil , co q10 , kelp , glucosamine , chondroitin , ................i'll have to find a book I got to tell all the supplements I've tried and dosages ..... you know what worked the best ? a dog I used with like 20-30 ofa dogs behind him in a 4-5 generation pedigree........... at one time almost all the vets treated hd like it was a death sentence , the folks who raised dysplastic dogs and didn't listen figured out different ...... most know better today

    I've looked at thousands of hip extended x-rays , hundreds of pennhip distraction/compression x-rays , honestly , I don't need to read nothing on it , I seen or knew all those dogs , you don't understand , I raised bordeauxs , i'm pretty sure I can round up a hundred or so x-rays of just dogs I've had or know , pennhips and hip extended ............ ofa hip extended view is without question the absolute best known position to identify existing hd , it's why pennhip uses it ???????? as far as cheating on these test, that is neither here nor there , folks looking for that aren't reputable ...... I do personally know a dog who was pennhipped twice for two scores that weren't even close do realize I also know breeders who are on the same page as me , my opinion is from literally hundreds of dogs , first hand experience .......... this stuff I got a handle on , I don't need to read up on it , the only thing reading done for me on this was explain or validate what I was seeing .....

    the biggest thing , my dogs hip type is vastly different today than when I started , just as my dogs type is different , I pushed both in the direction I wanted worked and I got the pics to prove it , and some of the dogs .....

    there are very few if any genetic traits that are not also environmental ?????????? I guess color might be ????

    what other hip test for hd are there besides pennhip , ofa and cornells ????????.
  18. Justin B.

    Justin B. Well-Known Member

    A lot of semantics and re wording of what I said in the post above. But hey you didnt want to read it.

    Thousands of x-rays hmmmmmmm.....interesting ????

    Penn hip and ofa processes are clear and different. They are easily understandable and obtainable to ANYBODY on their respective sites.

    I was not pointing out a spelling mistake.... i was pointing out how movement is not the tell all.

    The point I am trying to make since its not obvious is that health testing isnt as effective as it should be. Its no panacea.
    And all health testing is not the same.
    A lot of studies show this.
    You have somebody new to the breed asking questions about "health testing." Which is a generic phrase that can include a lot of different things. I think its important for people to kind of understand exactly whay it may or may not contain.

    I even remember you yourself saying you cant breed out certain things completely. I think the quote of yours may even be in this thread.

    What about elbows....
    What about eyes.....
    There are breeders who test for that too....
    Guess they should bad mouth or look down on people who only test heart and 1 form of hip testing.

    Look either somebody produces healthy dogs or they dont. This guy has a lot of dogs. He is known for some pretty good accomplishments and titles. His dogs should be able to speak for themselves. Also his customers. Not speculation best off of a couple seconds of footage.

    I'll ask again...Did you see the kennels he took the dogs out of?????
    Couldn't it just be a case of the dog just being stiff from the kennel???
    Do you care to mark the time and the "wrong bad movement" you called out in the vid?
  19. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    i actually did read it , possibly misinterpreted some of it ? i actually answered just like this here , just eliminated the quotes....

    well 39yrs is 14,235 days , a thousand would be seeing 1 x-ray every 2 weeks ? i would have to guess at least a thousand , i'm sure more , is probably an appropriate guess as i see more x-rays than 1 every 2 weeks right now , hd was a problem with the first mastiff i ever owned , running with me was my dogs job , i'm sure there were many stretches where i'd look at 4 different x-rays a day ....... if photobucket still worked , i'd inundate you with hip x-rays ........ friends of mine have sent me their x-rays since i been breeding dogs ......... the reason the bordeaux i started with looked like she did was because of the problem in the breed ........ i asked Jan Dykstra one time if he could send me some semen from a non-dysplastic bordeaux in the netherlands , he said he knew of like 2 , and they were very poor type ..... i looked into germany , they had more , maybe 5-6, only because their standards are so low ............ i have a friend who got his dogs from Pete Curley , he told Pete he just wanted something could walk ........ Pete sent him some dogues off a dog named vick ....... i wonder how many bordeaux breeders were looking for ddb down off good old vick ..........

    movement is not a tell all , but poor movement is a "tell something"

    health testing is absolutely effective , i'm not sure how effective you think it should be ......... anything related to phenotype is a pressure type change , you put pressure on the average by selecting toward the end you want , it is an absolute fact you can move the average in either direction , it takes time , you stack up the high end in the pedigrees and the mean will move in that direction , bell curve stuff , right ?????? it's done all the time by dog breeders for all sorts of traits ......

    folks should know there are "breeders" who use "health testing" as a marketing tool , i've not known of them to use it correctly, because to do so is a slow and expensive process ....... a health certified dog can be very unhealthy

    absolutely you can't , again bell curve stuff ? genetics is about averages ,

    i assume anyone testing for a genetic disease is testing for what affects their dogs .....i assure you all these type dogs are affected by hd and heart issues ... the fact my dogs never have had elbow dysplasia , and i don't know any bordeauxs with elbow dysplasia , indicates to me it's pretty uncommon . which in itself is anecdotal evidence of just how genetic these diseases are ? likewise with the eye issues .......

    everybody produces healthy dogs and unhealthy dogs , at least anybody who has produced more than a litter .......... this guy actually didn't move his dogs , they just stacked them , the black dog had a bad moment ,with his left rear , hopping away from the camera , but certainly someone would need to see more than that , he's a big dog , possibly an agility issue , strength issue , i would guess something caused it , 5:25 ..... the dogs i was referring to were videos affiliated(connected) on youtube to this video , one "breeder" waddled his dog away from the camera , he should have cut that out , that dog was a moving mess .......

    i guess ....... my dogues , except for the old ones, will fly out of sleep , down the stairs and out the door if they hear or smell something in the way of an animal ....... the kennel dogs will be hitting the top of a 6 foot fence when i go to get them , often out of a sleep it's possible

    his dog kennels had a bit to be desired , imo those dogs would be better off on chains with a good dog house ...... as i said earlier i was referring to some videos that video directed me too ....... but he movement at 5:25 had a bit to be desired
  20. Justin B.

    Justin B. Well-Known Member

    Ok quality post. Looks like we found a lot of common ground which I didnt expect.

    The first part of the quote is EXACTLY what I have been trying to say.
    Marketing vs Results and studies. Basically charging more, discrediting healthy dogs and decent breeders for a false sense of security.

    I believe in your anecdotal evidence. But I also believe in all the studies that show the results I posted. Like you said health tested parents producing a decent amount of "un healthy" dogs.

    Keep in mind most people with Corsos still to this day when they refer to health testing they mainly sight OFA and or Penn-hipp as the biggest.

    Sounds like hip dysplasia was a lot worse in DDBs than in CCs. Mastiff and large bulldog blood sounds like a recipe for that as well. Makes sense. Especially since i think American Bulldogs are also known to have it at a super high rate.

    So is it safe to say your foundation dogs come from displastic dogs or dogs with hip dysplasia?
    However, through your breeding program and your own interpretation of x rays you were able to drastically improve it?????
    Is that fair to say?
    Not a knock on you because I am taking you for your word that most of the best if not all of the DDBs had it back then.

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