Bone aggressive pup

[Jarena]

Ok sorry this is so long....Lettie is my 6 month old Corso girl. She is very stubborn (I expected that) but she is very sweet. Lettie is doing really well with training, she impresses me daily.

Just one issue lately, she has been getting protective/aggressive with bones and “chews”. Basically anything that isn’t her food, toy, or a quick treat, if she has to work on it for a minute or more she will get protective.

She doesn’t do it with her food, we worked with her on that from the day we brought her home at 8 weeks old. She has to work for her food, then a couple times a week, while she is eating we touch her and her food to make sure she keeps doing well. (We did get lazy with this for a few weeks at around 4.5 months old and we saw her start getting food dish protective so we worked harder and we will not be letting that happen again).

She has never been protective of her regular toys, kongs, tennis balls, and plush toys.

So with the bones.... we don’t have any at home, she only gets them a few times a week when she goes to “Grandma and grandpas”. They don’t leave them out for her, the bones are put up in a cupboard until Grandma gives one to Lettie. Then, Lettie will often chew for 5 minutes on her own then take it to Grandma to hold it while she chews. Then she will go back and forth, chewing alone, wanting Grandma to hold it. Also it seems to be the longer she is allowed to chew, the meaner she gets. She almost goes into a trance when she is chewing.

The problem is when it’s not her idea to give it up, if I (or anyone) try to take it from her or offer to hold it for her she’s not happy. I TRY to do it as gently as I can so she doesn’t feel the need to hoard it. First I talk to her and pet her back, then I keep talking to her and work my way up to petting her head. That’s when you can tell she’s mad, when I get to her head she freezes and looks at me out of the corner of her eye. Sometimes she will start a low growl or a little lip twitch. This is where I’m not sure how to handle it. We always take it away for a few minutes then give it back. When she gets it back she has to deal with us holding it or petting her head/face while she chews. She did growl and go after/snap at my boyfriends hand yesterday when he tried to take her bone.

I want to do this right and I want to work with her and break this behavior. I was thinking we should buy some bones for her at home so we can work on it more. Before I do that, I want to make sure I know how to handle it before I make the situation worse. Any advice or suggestions would be very appreciated!!

 

[Boxergirl]

I like Patricia McConnell a lot. This blog post has lots of good information.
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/resource-guarding-treatment-and-prevention

You should also know that just because she's only guarding her bones right now doesn't mean it's going to stay that way. Resource guarding often escalates if not dealt with the right way. I would suggest contacting a good positive trainer to help you with this. Cesar Millan techniques aren't the best option for a resource guarder, imo. I would also suggest that when you approach her bowl you should be adding really yummy things to it rather than taking it away. I'm not saying you do take her food away, but I know that it's common to do that and it can make resource guarding worse.

 

[Nik]

So awhile back Hector posted a wonderful series of videos on one of my posts about how he has trained his dog to stop eating mid-meal on command. After watching his videos I started doing this with my dogs when it came to meals and also when it came to toys and bones etc.

Since your dog is already showing signs of resource guarding I would seriously recommend trying to do this same training. Here is the link to my thread just scroll down until you see the videos in Hector's comments.

http://mastiff-forum.com/index.php?...r-age-the-answer-is-almost-always-both.30189/

 

[Nik]

Ooops! Hector from my post above is the dog.. The owner (and actual forum member as I assume Hector is not typing) is female. *she* has trained *her * dog to stop eating mid-meal on command. Sorry Hector's mom!

Anyhow my recommendation to watch those videos still stands. They are an excellent resource. :-D

 

[Boxergirl]

I think Hector's videos are awesome and a great reference. If I recall correctly, and I don't have the time right now to go back and watch the videos, those were heavy "leave it" work. That's a great idea to have a rock solid leave it command. Still - resource guarding requires more of a change of mindset, in my opinion. I believe that desensitization and conditioning are the most reliable for making a dog who is resource guarding think that a person approaching their treasured item is a great thing. It's not so much a command as a conditioned, internal response. Definitely work on a solid leave it, but don't neglect the other training tools that will change the dog's mindset about people approaching their treasures.

 

[Courtney H]

I taught my dogs to “drop it” and “leave it”. That works like a charm for my dogs. Once they are fully trained on that command, I feel it’s much easier to curb that bone aggression. When they were puppies I also only let them chew bones while I was sitting with them. I would pet them and take the bone and “share” it with them. That way they knew that the bones were ok to share. I also let them chew Nyla bones together once they learned the sharing technique. I’ve never had my dogs snap at each other over a bone. If I give them marro bones I always keep an eye on them while they chew them. So if I need to go out in the yard or something, I put the bones up. I never try and just take the bone. I always tell them to drop it and they stop chewing and will look up at me. Then I tell them to leave it and then I take the bone. They show zero signs of aggression when I take the bone.

 

[Aren]

My heart truly goes out to you in this situation. I know from experience what the potential is in this situation. I do not diminish nor judge anything previously suggested by those I see as truly wonderful members and dog lovers. From my perspective, I hope you will immediately seek professional assistance from a very humane but firm re-trainer. Not a negative reinforcement trainer who will use unpleasant methods which can be unnecessarily harsh. This situation sounds like it is already beyond your ability to control if your dog is growling at you and you already know Lettie can get mean.

I am new here, and this suggestion may not be appreciated, but your safety and the future well being of your dog are at a crucial impasse based on what you have written. Your dog wanting to keep it's bone isn't a behaviour problem, it's natural - but growling and lifting it' lip is. The good thing is that prompt action on your part can resolve this behaviour problem before your dominant dog takes control.

I had a resource aggressive Bully rescued from a fighting ring in Illinois. She was a dangerous dog, but no one was at risk but me and I had some experience with resource aggression. I had no children or others living with me. It took me 2 years to train her, and then it still took years of continued, consistent patterning, pattern interrupt, approach trading up, and rigid routine and voice commands for control of aggressive behaviour for resource and space guarding. If you don't know what these techniques are, you need help from someone qualified to render immediate appropriate re-training aid. Resource aggression tends to escalate...bones, food, toys, space, etc. At this time, your puppy is warning you, and with your gentle approach you are submissive, as if you are asking permission to have the bone. This is not a suggestion that you confront your puppy, act more dominant, assert yourself, take the bone and potentially escalate aggression. It is too late for asserting dominance if your dog is already warning it will bite. At six months of age, you are too late to assert your dominance and your puppy could inflict great harm if it bit. Please don't put yourself at risk. My Bully was a bait dog for a fighting ring. She tried to maul me twice. I didn't know if I would need to destroy her, and your situation isn't nearly that bad. My Bully was trained over time to only eat in a certain spot and only to occupy a certain place when there was any food at all present in any form or from any source. She was locked up when people visited.

Resource aggression turns into space guarding and other undesirable behaviours. For example, if your dog is permitted on furniture, you must order the dog to get off of the sofa before you sit on it. Sitting beside a space guarding, dominant or aggressive dog is a challenge for that space. Therefore you need to take control of the space before you occupy it, and a host of other guarding situations. I often make my dogs relocate from a space when I walk by it whether I intend to occupy it or not in order to assert my control and dominance over the dog and the location. It is an easy exercise in control and does no harm. It reinforces early training. At six months old, you are beyond this time if your dog is challenging you. Early training is to avoid a challenge in the first place. Once a challenge is present at six months, you have missed the opportunity with a dominant dog because you have not prevailed in the dominance hierarchy.

This is a suggestion like any other, but I hope you will get qualified assistance to control this situation quickly and before there is any expansion of the guarding or escalation in aggressive behaviour. The good thing is that your puppy is young and only testing the limits right now. Taking your temperature now isn't unusual, but the course of conflict isn't determined by he who initiates it, but by s/he who responds to it. I hope you will respond and consider a good trainer and in the meantime, don't temp fate with the bones. If your dog bites you, your relationship will not fully recover the trust. Please don't let anyone suggest that you use a spray bottle of water to divert your dogs attention. This is negative reinforcement when what is needed is retraining.

I apologize if I have in any way offended you or the members here who are well meaning and welcomed me so kindly, but you need help and fast. The learning curve for self-help is too steep if you have not had any training or experience in these situations. It is not worth the risk of a bite from a 70 pound dog. Your dogs continued existence and your safety are in the balance. Don't be alarmed, but take action. I think you know this is serious from the sound of your post. It is not a good situation to be afraid or even apprehensive of your dog, or have a dog who can't be trusted. Perhaps check with your Vet to see who handles this type of re-training in your area. Check with your breeder, animal rescue organizations, local obedience trainers, or the local AKC Chapter near you. Dog Groomers often know the best trainers. I would avoid Craigslist, or Pet Supply Co for recommendations, and stick with someone you know or is known and trusted.

Take good care, be safe and well, remove the objects which create the likelihood of an offense. Please don't temp fate, because I believe, in the mind of a mastiff, they think - Fate shall not temp me!
Please consider carefully.
Ari

 

[marke]

I think getting bones for home and working on it like you did the food is a good idea , and work on it as suggested by boxergirl , nik or Courtney , hector's vid is awesome , you seem to be doing fine with your puppy

not sure where aren's perspective comes from , but aside from suggesting a trainer , I think that post is full of overreaction , questionable information and bad suggestions ...... if your afraid of your 6month old puppy my advice would be rehome it with someone who isn't ....... would like to hear more about aren's attempted mauling's by the resource aggressive bait dog rescue ?????

 

[Jarena]

Thank you all so much! I always know I can count on all of you at this forum for great advice.

Boxergirl- that was a very informative link, thank you. And thanks for the heads up that the guarding may escalate, good to know what to watch out for. I started reading/stalking this forum before I even got Lettie, so I saw enough warnings about the “Cesar Millan” way, I just avoided it from the start. I am going to buy “high value treats” today so I can dive right into the desensitization and conditioning tonight.


Nik- thanks for the link to the suggested videos. I actually have a few videos of Lettie practicing her leave it, but she has a long way to go before she is on Hectors level! What a well behaved, handsome boy! Your suggestion made me start working even harder at solidifying her drop it and leave it, thank you


Courtney- your suggestion of having her drop it and leave it is helpful, that’s what I started trying to do when she started growling. She is good at leave it, but she is pretty stubborn when it comes to “drop it” so that’s what I have been focusing on hard core for the past couple days, thank you!!


Aren- I decided before I got Lettie that I would do everything in my power to only use positive training, I would only hire a trainer with acceptable methods as well. I am not as experienced as most people on here but I do have common sense and I am a smart woman. With the advice from all of these wonderful and experienced people, I am going to try to handle this at home first. I am in no way opposed to professional help. And I promise all of you that I will seek professional help the minute I feel like I am not making progress, or if the situation gets worse. I know that refusing help would be irresponsible of me.(I will be calling around to find the right one either way, just in case). I don’t have any children, it’s just me and my boyfriend at home with no visitors that don’t respect our rules, and no young visitors. We are strict with Lettie and she isn’t allowed to do anything without permission. She gets nothing for free. I feel like we are doing a good job with our girl. Thank you for your caring advice.


Marke- thank you for your reassuring words, I needed that I agree, if I was afraid of Lettie, I would certainly find a better home for her. I did my research, A LOT of research, and I am up for the challenge. I spent HOURS on this site reading all of the problems and challenges from REAL LIFE OWNERS, I may be a first time Corso owner, but everyone has to start somewhere! This site has proven to be the most informative and valuable resource yet, thank you

 

[Aren]

Hello, and thank you for the opportunity to further clarify my opinion and provide more information regarding my experience. I hope this reply will be responsive to your inquiry.

My Bully wasn't a garden variety resource aggression. I found her on the internet in a high kill shelter and rescued her unseen. I had confidence that I could help a resource aggressive dog and knew many protocols for retraining. I was foolishly naive about those unfortunate dogs involved in dog fighting. The sad reality for those dogs is that they are not just starved and deprived or abused. They are fed gun powder and beer. Gun powder makes dogs wildly excitable and uncontrollable. That is why re-training took so long and was a lifetime commitment. No matter how good training may be, you can't control a dog which can't control itself. My Bully had neurological problems from lead poisoning and had years of Chelation therapy to help her become a family dog. I didn't realize she was fed gun powder. I rescued her in September. By November I was moving bulk ammunition, and it was on the floor. She started guarding it like food. It was only then that I researched it. The lead poisoning likely caused her blindness rather than any genetic reason. Yes, my experience was not the norm. Most resource aggression is not what I experienced. I understand this. I also know about serious dog bite from personal experience. My Bully originally attacked without warning - no growling, no showing teeth, no snarling - nothing. She just launched without warning and completely unprovoked in the presence of food. On one instance, fortunately, she grabbed my bath robe, not my flesh and she tore at it without letting go. On another instance she was held back by my son during retraining. Any bite can have tragic consequences physically and psychologically. A dog who is exhibiting aggressive warnings will bite, and to believe otherwise is foolish or naive. Even welder's gloves are insufficient for a dog who can exert over 200 pounds of pressure in jaw crushing power. My mature mastiff can easily crush a lamb shank without difficulty.

Biting is a serious matter and isn't worth the risk, if the risk is avoidable. Most experienced trainers teach "leave it, drop it, give it" etc before there is an event of guarding. These are great commands. Since I have cats and poultry, "leave it" needs to be the first thing I teach. It is aheady of house training. By the time a dog is exhibiting growling, snarling and snapping, retraining is not a job for the inexperienced. This is just my opinion, but it is based on years of experience. If the young lady who owns Lettie is still speaking gently and petting a dog who is tensing, growling, lifting lip and exhibiting opposition reflex to touch, then there is the risk of a bite. To me, a bite should be avoided at all costs, and continued petting of a dog displaying aggressive tendencies is not worth the risk of injury, especially an injury which can easily be avoided and retrained by someone who is experienced.

I can see how my post may sound like an overreaction, and I truly hesitated to write it and then post it. That said, If I can save someone an injury, and help a dog not need to be rehomed, I would rather err on the side of conservatism and be wrong, than learn someone experienced a tragic dog bite which could have, and should have been avoided.

It was disappointing to read that the OP should "rehome" a beloved pet when what is needed is training. Mostly retraining of the owner who does not realize the role she played in the dogs behaviour. If rehoming suggestions like this are considered constructive, then this forum is likely not the place I thought this forum was when I signed up. Many experienced handlers here posted wonderful and effective suggestions, and had those suggestions been previously employed by the OP, this situation would not exist, or be easily dealt with. The time to train is usually before there is a problem, not after you have a resource guarding dog with a bone. The OP is inexperienced with the appropriate tactics for handling and controlling the dog or the protocols would already be in place. I mean this kindly.

I don't take resources from my dogs. My dogs "leave it, drop it, or give it." I use "give" for objects which are totally in their mouths, if I need to get something out. The activity of taking resources from a dog undermines the trust the dog has for the owner. jmho. You can do it in a young puppy, but not with a dog who is already taking control as against the owner's interest or safety. The results of taking resources from a guarding dog are risky, and only someone who who has never had a serious dog bite would suggest or employ such an irresponsible course of action.

I hope the OP updates her posted situation and that is resolves for the highest good for herself, and her loved ones, including Lettie.

My spouse is telling me I am wasting my time writing this, but I would feel remiss and have regret if I didn't write my suggestion just as others here have done and an injury resulted which could have been avoided.

Respectfully submitted,
Ari

 

[Aren]

Thank you all so much! I always know I can count on all of you at this forum for great advice.

Boxergirl- that was a very informative link, thank you. And thanks for the heads up that the guarding may escalate, good to know what to watch out for. I started reading/stalking this forum before I even got Lettie, so I saw enough warnings about the “Cesar Millan” way, I just avoided it from the start. I am going to buy “high value treats” today so I can dive right into the desensitization and conditioning tonight.


Nik- thanks for the link to the suggested videos. I actually have a few videos of Lettie practicing her leave it, but she has a long way to go before she is on Hectors level! What a well behaved, handsome boy! Your suggestion made me start working even harder at solidifying her drop it and leave it, thank you


Courtney- your suggestion of having her drop it and leave it is helpful, that’s what I started trying to do when she started growling. She is good at leave it, but she is pretty stubborn when it comes to “drop it” so that’s what I have been focusing on hard core for the past couple days, thank you!!


Aren- I decided before I got Lettie that I would do everything in my power to only use positive training, I would only hire a trainer with acceptable methods as well. I am not as experienced as most people on here but I do have common sense and I am a smart woman. With the advice from all of these wonderful and experienced people, I am going to try to handle this at home first. I am in no way opposed to professional help. And I promise all of you that I will seek professional help the minute I feel like I am not making progress, or if the situation gets worse. I know that refusing help would be irresponsible of me.(I will be calling around to find the right one either way, just in case). I don’t have any children, it’s just me and my boyfriend at home with no visitors that don’t respect our rules, and no young visitors. We are strict with Lettie and she isn’t allowed to do anything without permission. She gets nothing for free. I feel like we are doing a good job with our girl. Thank you for your caring advice.


Marke- thank you for your reassuring words, I needed that I agree, if I was afraid of Lettie, I would certainly find a better home for her. I did my research, A LOT of research, and I am up for the challenge. I spent HOURS on this site reading all of the problems and challenges from REAL LIFE OWNERS, I may be a first time Corso owner, but everyone has to start somewhere! This site has proven to be the most informative and valuable resource yet, thank you

Hi,
I was already responding before I read your post. You sound like you are doing well and your loving commitment is key. Boxergirl's suggestion of providing something more yummy is called "trading up" In trading up, you don't take anything away, you add something better. The dog becomes accustomed to you approaching the food and the food mat, etc. and doesn't need to worry about you taking something away, and often stops resource guarding. My suggestions come from care and concern, so your understanding is appreciated.
Lettie is very fortunate.
I hope you will update on your progress.
Well wishes in your training.
Best regards,
Ari

 

[marke]

I really don't want to offend you , I just strongly disagree with the overall message in your post ........ I don't question your observations , I do question the conclusions you draw from them ......


I've known many dogfighters , they got lots of issues , most shouldn't own any animal . never knew one to feed their dog gun powder , read about it on the net , but never knew anyone did that ....... just the opposite , those dogs were fed and conditioned like kings , those folks been feeding raw long before the give the dog a bone book . there's sulfur in gunpowder , I knew a guy wouldn't even feed vegetables that were high in sulfur to his dogs .... those dogs are everybit as conditioned as a sled dog , the best conditioners got feeding down to a science , hell I knew a guy wouldn't give his dogs tap water , his kids and family however drank tap water ............. where did your dog ingest the lead ?

I would say a dog never , but I've heard you should never say never , so i'll say I've not seen a dog bite without first signaling it was about to happen as of yet in my life ........

my bordeauxs have no problem cracking a cow femur , but i'm not afraid if them ..........

 

[Aren]

I really don't want to offend you , I just strongly disagree with the overall message in your post ........ I don't question your observations , I do question the conclusions you draw from them ......


I've known many dogfighters , they got lots of issues , most shouldn't own any animal . never knew one to feed their dog gun powder , read about it on the net , but never knew anyone did that ....... just the opposite , those dogs were fed and conditioned like kings , those folks been feeding raw long before the give the dog a bone book . there's sulfur in gunpowder , I knew a guy wouldn't even feed vegetables that were high in sulfur to his dogs .... those dogs are everybit as conditioned as a sled dog , the best conditioners got feeding down to a science , hell I knew a guy wouldn't give his dogs tap water , his kids and family however drank tap water ............. where did your dog ingest the lead ?

I would say a dog never , but I've heard you should never say never , so i'll say I've not seen a dog bite without first signaling it was about to happen as of yet in my life ........

my bordeauxs have no problem cracking a cow femur , but i'm not afraid if them ..........

No worries. It is almost impossible to offend me, and it is not possible for me to be offended by someone I don't know. I am not thin skinned, nor am I argumentative.
If you wish to believe you know my observations that is ok too.
I am only responsible for what I do and say. I am not responsible for what another thinks.
You don't need to agree with me, that is not even an issue.
I am not seeking your agreement or approval of my views, nor being confrontational - at all.
These posts are merely expressing my opinion based on my experience in the hope to help someone.
You asked about my experience and I shared a small part of it.

I don't know much about dog fighting, but what I know is not as you have described in your experience. My knowledge of it is from photos of dogs mutilating and cannibalizing each other, which I wish I had never seen. I know much more about ammunition than I do about dog fighting. Evidently people who use dogs for fighting don't have access to gun powder, but can easily obtain it from rounds of ammo. Although modern gunpowder from US sources doesn't contain lead, bullets do. Foreign rounds of ammunition (NATO and the popular Russian made ammo) may still be leaded and even if not, bullets have lead projectiles. Modern gunpowder is nitro-cellulose and is also highly toxic. How my Bully got lead poisoning, I can only speculate, but she would have eaten ammunition if she could have accessed it.
She was attempting to chew through the boxes on the floor to get it.

Until I rescued that Bully, I had never seen a dog attack without warning.
Her attacks were like a fixed action pattern, no mental process.
There was no thought involved - more likely than not it was a survival habit.
She was not the average resource guarding dog, and she was much older than I was told.

For most dogs there are signs, if someone is alert and reads them.
Resource guarding doesn't occur all at once. There are subtle cues which precede more obvious signs and behaviours. For example, a puppy may take food or a treat away and eat it in a few feet away, turn away or consume in private. It may hide from view totally to consume food and treats. The sideways glance is also very telling. These are signs the dog is displaying which many people miss. These subtle signs reveal a passive tendency toward resource guarding. Passive sometimes remains passive, but too often becomes active.

I am not an expert in canine aggression abatement, but forewarned allows someone to prepare.
Prepared is best, with the hope that you don't need it. Better to be prepared and not need it than to need it and not be prepared. If someone gets something positive about this subject out or our discussion, that is great. If not, it's just a post.

Best regards,
Ari

 

[marke]

the pics you describe are a reality and disgusting , I could find like pics related to greyhound racing , sled dog racing and horse racing , it's the people ..... I knew a guy raised dogs for nothing more than temperament and conformation , he fed his dogs his culls ......... I assure you gunpowder has nothing to do with dogfighting , I can't imagine any result from feeding it to your dog other than a sick unhealthy dog ........... I guarantee you if you look through one of strattons books at some of the great foundation dogs , not one of them was ever fed gunpowder ...... I did have a dog would drink your beer if given the opportunity .....

all dogs are born with an instinct to guard resources , newborns pushing littermates off a teat until they find the best one , 5-6 week olds fighting littermates for food in a bowl or trough ..... the more valuable the resource the more they'll defend it ........ a full dog will give up a bowl a food easier than a starving dog ....... I got 4 dogs , i'll put out 5-6 bones at a time to prevent a fight , there's probably 10-20 around the yard , house and kennels , their not valuable enough to fight over ...... if I put out 1 new one , there's a real possibility of a fight .........

I realize and understand all these new more complicated ways of raising dogs , some I know can't possibly work , others I have no doubt they work .... myself I go the simple route , we've lived with dogs at least for a 100 centuries , there's a reason for that . like us , a behavior that gets positive results will be repeated , a behavior that gets a negative result won't ........

I can read your conclusions and pigeon hole your experience , the use of the word "observations" was honestly used to soften my reply , as I said I didn't want to offend you , your experiences/observations come across to me as very limited .......


dogs are better at reading people than people are at reading people ... if anyone is afraid of their dog they absolutely shouldn't have it , if your afraid of your puppy , it's only getting worse ..........

 

[Jarena]

Well it’s only been one day of working with “trading up” and trying to condition her to love my approach. But so far so good! I bought some deli ham and she loves it. I only give her tiny bits but she is doing very well. I’m taking it slow but as you can see, she is already looking at me in anticipation of a bit of ham
Also, just to be clear to everyone, I’m not willing to give up on this girl. As stubborn as she is, I promise I am more stubborn. I may not have experience, but you better believe I am one bull-headed, strong willed woman that’s not going to let this pup fail. Besides.... I’m already head over heels in love with her

 

[DennasMom]

Back to the cuttie-pattotie-Lettie... Have you looked into Clicker-Training?

This would be a PERFECT place to try it out.

"Load" a clicker, then, when you want her to focus on you and drop the treat, you just have to give a "click" - she should stop what she's dong, to look for the treat that follows the "click" - praise her for looking at you, give her a treat, then when she goes to look back to the bone, use the "leave-it" command and send her to her rug so you can safely remove the bone to another location (or just hold it, look at it, talk to it and then give it back to her, if you want). Ask for another command (sit/down/come) and PRAISE and TREAT generously - or go do something else, like play some tug or go for a walk - so she forgets about the bone and just enjoys basking in your love and praise.

I've trained Denna to look at me when I make the "psssst" noise, so I don't need to have a clicker in my hand anymore.
When she's eating dinner, I'll "Psst" so she'll pause and pull her nose out of the dish and I can add some goodies to her meal. She could care less if my hand is near her dish, since I rarely take anything away from her and am always ADDING tasty stuff into the dish.

Oh - and you're definitely on the right track - knowing you must out-stubborn your stubborn-mastiff is a basic foundation of training these guardian breeds!
Be patient, kind, generous and consistent, and you'll get the results your want! (eventually, HA!)

Kikopup on Youtube has some great videos on clicker training.
Here's just one to get started...

 

[DennasMom]

I'm also going to add... if you look at Hector's videos that were linked to, above... Linda does not TOUCH Hector when he's eating... she asks him to leave it and move away from the dish just on command.

I'd hazard to guess this is the part making her "mad" - "First I talk to her and pet her back, then I keep talking to her and work my way up to petting her head. That’s when you can tell she’s mad, when I get to her head she freezes and looks at me out of the corner of her eye."

You're bugging her instead of just telling her what you want and leaving her to chew in peace. (that's me getting all anthropomorphic with your puppy, though)

 

[Nik]

I'm also going to add... if you look at Hector's videos that were linked to, above... Linda does not TOUCH Hector when he's eating... she asks him to leave it and move away from the dish just on command.

I'd hazard to guess this is the part making her "mad" - "First I talk to her and pet her back, then I keep talking to her and work my way up to petting her head. That’s when you can tell she’s mad, when I get to her head she freezes and looks at me out of the corner of her eye."

You're bugging her instead of just telling her what you want and leaving her to chew in peace. (that's me getting all anthropomorphic with your puppy, though)

I've conditioned my dogs to let me touch them while eating since the day came home. They are so okay with my contact that I can reach into their mouths to pull something out if needed. I have had to do this with dangerous objects more than once. The only thing I have to worry about when doing it is getting the thing from them without t hem swallowing and having an extremely gross and slimy hand afterwards. My husband is totally grossed out by it and refuses to do it himself but I am super proud of my dogs for their extreme tolerance of the handling.

They actually get more frustrated by me giving them commands when they are hungry at meal time. I typically make them go through at least four different commands before allowing them to start eating and if I decide to make it an extended training with the bowls of food out and waiting then they start grumbling and talking back as they obey the commands. That is when I get plenty of that side eye you mention. lol But, even with the grumbling, side eye and back talk they will not touch the food bowls until I give them the command. In fact, if I forget to follow my release of "okay" with "eat your food" Kahlua will just sit there staring at the bowl until I remember to give her the command to eat. Diesel will eat immediately following his release "okay" but Kahlua won't until she gets that added command to "eat your food". More than once I have put her through all the commands, given her the release and then moved onto Diesel out of site and finished his only to wander back to where Kahlua was minutes later and find her just staring at her food bowl mournfully.

But, of course all of the above took time and yes definitely out stubborning the stubborn. I have also been studiously working on Hector's method from the video and my pups are doing great at it though not as quick to stop as Hector is. But, I am using it as a way to also slow down their eating because Kahlua especially loves to gulp down her food.

 

[Jarena]

DennasMom- I technically don’t do clicker training but when we brought Lettie home I did some research and found out I was kind of already doing clicker training without the actual clicker. I use “good girl” as my clicker. So after I found out I was already kind of doing it, I just started to perfect it. I taught my boyfriend how to use “good girl” also. So I guess we kinda do.


I have been working on her food bowl, tossing in yummy things as BoxerGirl suggested. But I was running into the problem of her big head being in the way haha! So using “good girl” to get her to look at me so I can toss in the yummy stuff is a wonderful idea. I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. Thank you!


I have been working on conditioning her to love my approaching her bone and her food, she is doing very well. And as you suggest I have also been working on “leave it” with her bone and her food. She is doing very well for a puppy, we are working toward being at “Hector” level. She is really bad at “drop it” though!


I often (many times a day) use her commands to distract her. With her bone I have her “leave it” and then “place” or “back” so I can put the bone away. Then we work on commands. Good to know I’m on the right path.


And I believe you may be onto something with the whole me “bugging her” haha! She does respond so much better when I tell her to leave it. I would bet that I could tell her to “leave it” with her bone and reach right under her nose to grab it. I haven’t done that because we are going slow but I bet I could. I think it also has something to do with breaking her “trance” before reaching for the bone.


Nik- I know the “slimy hand” too well! I have been removing items from Lettie’s mouth since we brought her home. She will sometimes jerk her head away and grumble if it’s a super tasty twig but she has never gotten “mean” about me taking stuff out of her mouth. I get slimy hands at least a few times a day since she thinks she has to consume every stick she can find (then throw it up at 3:00am). Luckily when I reach to put my hand in her mouth she focuses on keeping the “thing” in her mouth but not swallowing it (yet).


Your pups sound like Lettie at meal time! I make her do a handful of commands also, followed by “stay”. She knows not to move until I say “release”. She has been pretty impressive with the strength of her “stay” even with distractions. But if I have her do more commands than usual she also starts the drooling, grumbling and arguing while obeying. It’s hard not to giggle while she grumbles at me though!


As always, thank you guys for all of the advice, I always appreciate it!!

 

[Boxergirl]

This may sound nit picky, but technically the clicker should be to mark a behavior rather than to elicit one. Using it to elicit the behavior makes it more difficult to stop using it later on. I would suggest working on a command such as "watch" or "look" first. Then when you approach her bowl tell her to "watch" and when she looks up at you (not at the clicker or at the treat, at your eyes) give your "click" or marker phrase "good girl."

Again, the click is just to teach her exactly what behavior it is that you want from her and it should happen at the precise time that she performs the behavior. So as she meets your eyes, you mark it. Then treat.