Boerboel and IPO

Discussion in 'Obedience & Sports' started by Kenneth Smith Jr, Mar 9, 2019.

  1. good evening. I would like thoughts regarding Boerboel and IPO training. I keep getting from breeders not to do IPO training specifically bite work. My research on Boerboel states they are highly intelligent, easy to train and strong desire to be with family and please. The qualities appeared similar to Cane Corso. Cane Corso are known to do well in IPO. So why are breeders so reluctant to title their dogs in this sport work IPO?
     
  2. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    nothing wrong with bitework initiated through prey and play …….. imo , a lot wrong with doing bitework initiated through self defense , unless your just looking for a dangerous dog ………..
     
  3. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    IMO the reason they don't do IPO work with Boerboel or most mastiff including many larger Corso is the speed. The rate at which they perform commands is too slow, where IPO requires rapid sharp commands and the sheer size of Borboel is too large to even come close to getting a title. The second reason is the fact that Mastiff dogs are born with Guardian skills and some say that teaching them bite work on top of their born skills is overkill. Personally, I think its good to teach bite work for the simple fact of release and recall, both invaluable commands for such a large breed.

    Here in this site Black Shadow mentioned once in a conversation that some said it was bad for mastiff as it took their eyes off of the guarding skills when doing compression heeling. I disagree with that as I know my Corso has eyes in the back of her head.

    I do hobby IPO with my Corso and she has gotten slower as she became 100 pounds and I keep her thin. While we do ok, I understand now why there are few mastiff in ipo. All that being said, nothing wrong with IPO training for any dog. If I had a Borbeol I would train it IPO style for the basic commands just because its not hard if consistant and very cool to do with dogs, they love the work and it creates discipline.
     
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  4. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    BTW I'm not talking so much about physically slow. I'm talking about the fact that they think too much, therefore slowing down commands. How many times do you see a mastiff owner have to ask something more than once to get it done. Its that instinctual untrusting factor, always analyzing when asked things. As far as speed and agility, insane for the smaller versions. Mine loves to climb and jump fences and is super fast. But I see the larger Corso much slower.
     
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  5. Thank you funny you said this about slow response. My girl Cane Corso display slow response several times. She basically is being a Corso (per my IPO trainer) he claims Corso are known for this. My girl loves agility especially going up the A frame. I am having difficult time placing dumb bell in her mouth. She is getting better with tracking. Since doing IPO her focus on me and obedience has improved dramatically. So you are correct so many other advantages (not just protection training/bite work) with IPO trainng
     
  6. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    I'm on barking on command at this time for several weeks and its one of the tougher things to train this girl, I did it with my poodle fairly easily. I sometimes question why I put hundreds of hours into training her for mediocre response in my opinion, I like perfection. But she is so eager and happy to work I just couldn't take it away from her. I also decided to wait a little more before we buy our KNVP dog so I don't neglect any time or training with the corso while she is young. I know I am up for challenges with the KNVP but I can't wait to train a super sharp bitey, drivy, flying dog and my wife is eager to train a Dutchiex also so both of us will spend an hour a day on it as we shared the Corso training too.

    Good for you, I know it is awesome. It should be mandatory for Corso so people get a hold of obedience straight away. I couldn't imagine this dog pulling on a leash or not listening, it would be a nightmare. Here is a recent pic of the Corso at the mall, she immediately jumps on the fountain. wifeandnessa.jpg
     
  7. I totally understand my girl is my first big dog ever owned. I have learned a lot with her we grew together and our relationship is truly awesome. But I feel if I had a much driverery dog I could do much more. Cause I know the cane corso breed I may lean toward getting a male cane corso with more drive. A part of me would love to work with a Boerboel to see what I can do or get out of that dog. Ok have time there are some things would like to achieve with my girl before getting another
     
  8. Sheila Braund

    Sheila Braund Well-Known Member

    I have to agree with you Steve about training classes....for all larger breeds. I took Bella for obedience classes....just so there was distractions while training...in a controlled environment. She was already very obedient with me.....not so much with my husband....but that's his problem. I do take the dogs every....he doesn't.
    I wish my husband took advantage of the training classes.... I even trained at home with my husband in the house....he just isn't as much as a dog person as I am.
    So he isn't allowed to take Bella anywhere without me. I also believe the more you work with your dog the more smarter they are.
     
  9. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    the tornabene's had quite a few mastiffs titled ipo 1 , 2 and I believe one was ipo3 , they still may be active in that area , if so i'd imagine they got to be going on 20 yrs raising pups for sch/ipo , they sure struck me as knowing what they were doing , I think that girl knew dogs , and obviously how to raise pups to work , 0-8 weeks is a big deal ………. mastiffs are for the most part lacking in prey drive , they do not lack in fear/defensiveness , folks I've known did bitework with mastiffs used self defense to get them to bite because it's easy to do , even with an unsuitable dog , they were "hacks" ……... for every one Banuelos , Lucerno or Ritchie there are 100 hacks training dogs ………. a defensive dog that has little to no bite inhibition is in most situations a liability , probably why the breeders you talk to advise against it ….……… aside from biting , I've found any mastiff I've owned easy to train , I've yet to have one that wasn't ultra-food motivated , or eager to please ………


     
  10. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

  11. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    "the tornabene's had quite a few mastiffs titled"

    While I don't disagree that some Corso make a good IPO dog. These dogs in the videos above are actually Bandoggs which are mastiff x pitbull usually Bordeaux x pitbull or bullmastiff pit. They need the pitbull in their to take away that heavy thought process that goes through guard dog mastiff heads before they act and also add stamina. Pits train amazing much better faster acting than mastiff but have zero natural guard dog ability. It doesn't make them better, it just makes them better in the area of training for speed. I've seen pits train better than malinios, just mind blowing.

    Another thing to note in the bottom video off subject is the fact that that dog is super trained and she still has a prong collar on him. Same here, I agree 100%. That dog can drag her a mile if he wanted.
     
  12. Steve thank you for video. She has a nice working dog. I am starting to believe a dog trained to bite will not just bite unless provoked. I could be wrong in this thinking it appears most dog bites are due to the dog being anxious, nervous or fearful. Whereas a well trained dog with a stable confidence about themselves should not bite. But they are animals so anything could happen.
     
  13. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    the dog in the video is 3/4 neapolitan mastiff , I believe the dogs parents are a purebred neo dam and a neo /American bulldog cross sire …….…. I don't believe those folks have ever used a pitbull in their program ? is an American bulldog a mastiff ? most folks I've known that done this and actually worked their dogs used American bulldogs as the cross , way better than using a pitbull …I've read about swinford using pitbulls , and lucero , but I believe lucero knew enough to use AB's also …….not sure what you mean by a "heavy thought process" , I do know i'd use pits or American bulldogs for their prey drive and aggression , both of which mastiffs tend to lack , which could make the dogs suitable for protection work……… aren't pitbulls descended from the fighting bulldogs , weren't those dogs descended from mastiffs ? is a presa canario a mastiff ? ca de bou ? dogo ? fila ? them fawn blackmasked purebred gamedogs like tant's cody , 100lbs , or dogs like maday , certainly don't look like terriers .......
     
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  14. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    Interesting that its part Neo. The Banddogs that I know of are usually Corso Pit or Bordeaux pit and its usually for size and bite. My Corso has tremendous drive and my Bordeaux had great drive and bite also. However one thing they both lacked from an IPO trainer perspective is speed in commands and longer term stamina in agility. But their bite is insane and their size is perfect for takedowns during bitework. Kenneth's above IPO trainer mentioned that all Corso were known for slow commands and I know this also. It is because they are guard dogs that think for themselves, they don't trust so every time you give any mastiff a command its usually not instant, maybe fast on some but never instant. Where a pit doesn't have those issues, acts first thinks later makes for speed, also has stamina for days.

    Im sure others have different opinions which is really all it is and whatever works for them is what's important.
     
    Kenneth Smith Jr likes this.
  15. Steve, so there is no way to correct response time in a mastiff or corso? I guess ultimately I want a well behave social dog. So how this achieved really does not matter. I do love IPO training cause of the different areas of interest (agility, tracking, bite work and lastly obedience) I can do everything via classes at a local club just not bite work. And from what I am reading Boerboel don’t need bite work. Thank you all for your comments. I still have plenty of time to decide on another mastiff.
     
  16. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    been awhile , but I've never heard of a cane corso bandog , I don't doubt it's been done recently , there was no such breed as cane corso prior to the 1990's …… I had neos from mike sottile/alaric in the late 1970's through 1992 …….. he told me he was bringing some dogs the Italian farmers kept to the US , had to be near 1990 , and then you could count them on your fingers in the US for another decade ……. whose cc's were used ? I don't believe there is any remnants of swinford bandogs , which were English mastiff , pitbull and neo crosses …….. Lucero's dogs may still be around ...….I do know "Lucero's curley" was a straight neo pitbull cross ……… I do know exactly how the dog , kimbo , in the video below is bred , a pretty modern bandog , common sense choices in his breeding ……. I personally knew many dogs in his pedigree and the folks who produced them ……that's a pretty good dog , and I believe psa2 …… if pit xAB is a bandog , I know more protection titled pitxAB bandogs , and the folks who titled them , than I could possibly remember off the top of my head , sch 3 , ipo3 ,psa , mr , fr ………..

     
  17. Steven C

    Steven C Active Member

    If you are going to have speed and need Mastiff, it's been proven Corso would do the best in this, they do win titles. My girl moves fairly quickly especially in the first 20 minutes when her drive and excitement are through the roof. When she gets tired her commands slow but this is what makes her livable in the house imo. We are actually closer to leaving the states and in discussion of what other dogs we will need at our new semi rural place in Morocco and a second Corso is top on our list plus a malinios x dutchie. I would get another Ukranian Corso as I like the strong guarding ability with her.
    I read some of these fantasy like posts with letting semi strange people in the house with a Corso while the family is away and I just can't even believe it. The liability and risk is just bizarre. This tells me that the breedings vary tremendously.

    A Facebook friend Mike Suttle Logan Haus Kennels for KNVP dogs rescued this 4 week old frozen flea ridden pitbull and it is hard to beat the level of training of this dog, can be seen here in my timeline.

    This is serious imprinting, this dog will be an excellent example of how pitbulls can train when in the right hands.
     
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