Blood work done...What does it mean?????

[SavingGrace]

Liver disease the BUN lowers

Dehydration would also have high Creatine levels

Which she said were normal

Touche! You are right! I asked about the water because drinking a lot could help filter things out of her system as well. Sadie's mom, could you try a bland diet for a couple of days and see how she responds?

 

[Geisthexe]

Then please post the data you used to come to that conclusion.

What conclusion on BUN or Diet?

 

[Geisthexe]

Touche! You are right! I asked about the water because drinking a lot could help filter things out of her system as well. Sadie's mom, could you try a bland diet for a couple of days and see how she responds?

Me touché' no I was just correcting info

I agree on diet

 

[ruthcatrin]

What conclusion on BUN or Diet?

Your statement that "to many dogs get sick on ....PM diets"

I wasn't argueing about the BUN levels, just stating that its to early to make statements using them since we don't have those actual numbers or enough other information and this vet is known to have issues with the raw diet concept.

 

[Sadies Mom]

Well, just make things clear, I will go through some of Sadies history in a nutshell......
She is 14 months
We got her in March of last year and she was suffering from diarrhea from the time we got her (tried various kibble)
She was diagnosed with Poly-cystic kidney disease in December of 2012
We started PMR in January and the diarrhea was gone
The last CBC had elevated Creatnine (can't remember the number) And the BUN was at 35
The latest CBC (Monday) Creatnine was normal and BUN was 50 and she was fasting
The Ultrasound we are doing in a few weeks to check if the cysts has gotten larger or is the same in comparison to the Ultra sound done on January 16th of this year

 

[ruthcatrin]

When was her last CBC done, do you remember? Were both sets done fasting or not?

 

[Sadies Mom]

Elevated BUN can also point to liver shunt, I assume that's what the ultrasound will be looking for?

Does she drink a lot of water?

She does drink a lot of water and the ultra sound is on the kidneys

 

[Sadies Mom]

When was her last CBC done, do you remember? Were both sets done fasting or not?

Yes both sets were fasting and I think the last CBC was done in the beginning of December. I will get a copy of the blood test later today. The homeopathic vet wanted the test results as well, so I need to get a copy anyway....

 

[Sadies Mom]

As far as dogs being omnivores???? I thought they were carnivores???
Are Dogs Carnivores - or Omnivores?

 

[ruthcatrin]

Yes both sets were fasting and I think the last CBC was done in the beginning of December. I will get a copy of the blood test later today. The homeopathic vet wanted the test results as well, so I need to get a copy anyway....

Cool, consistancy helps.

My OPINION (and thats all it is), is that the rise in her BUN is not totally out of the realm of normal for a raw fed dog, BUT due to her health problems it resulted in a number high enough to be worrysome (ie: not technically over the DO SOMETHING point, but enough that its worth seeing if you can do something). Whether it means there's additional problems with her kidney's I don't know, but the ultrasound should help figure that out.

Does the Homeopathic vet do nutrition too? If not can they refer you to a nutritionist who's good for raw diets? It IS possible that modifying her diet to include a percentage of fruits and vegi's would help with bring that down, but especially considering her health problems I'd want to see you sit down with a nutritionist to work out a diet including them.

 

[ruthcatrin]

As far as dogs being omnivores???? I thought they were carnivores???
Are Dogs Carnivores - or Omnivores?

There's arguements both ways, my personal feelings is that dogs are carnivores, but not obligate carnivores like cats. Basically they CAN eat fruits and vegis and in limited amounts it does no harm and possibly some good, but that they should be eating a diet of animal products for best health. Its an arguement that can span pages and pages on forums (I saw one on another board that was 20pages long, and both sides just kept pulling out more and more data, it was an interesting read to say the least).

 

[Geisthexe]

As far as dogs being omnivores???? I thought they were carnivores???
Are Dogs Carnivores - or Omnivores?

You put up a dog advisory board that can basically put anything die to the FACT the Internet is not governed

Here is PetMD
PetMD Mobile - Dog Care Article

I am trying to get one of the vets on there down time to pull up VIN for me so I can get you more data on protein % & dogs being Carnivores or Omnivores. At work we are not allowed on outside sites so have to get vet ..

 

[NeSaxena]

I saw one on another board that was 20pages long, and both sides just kept pulling out more and more data, it was an interesting read to say the least.

I love interesting reads.. Whats the link?

 

[ruthcatrin]

It was a while back, but if I can find the thread I'll give you the link.

 

[Sadies Mom]

Ok...so I dug up some old blood work and I have a copy of the new one so here we go....
10/12/12 Sent to Lab (Antech)
BUN 35 (Scale 6-31)
Creatinine 2 (Scale 0.5-1.6)

11/27/12 Done at regular vet
BUN 36 (Scale 7-27)
Creatinine 1.8 (Scale 0.5-1.8)

4/1/13 Done at Regular vet
BUN 50.0 (Scale 7-27
Creatinine 1.7 (Scale 0.5-1.8)

All blood was fasting results

 

[ruthcatrin]

I'll be interested to see what the homeopathic vet says, and the results of the ultra-sound, but the next time the regular vet insists that a raw diet is too high in protein point out to her that the USDA says a whole, raw, chicken is only just over 18% protein, which just isn't that high.

 

[Sadies Mom]

She has lightened up in the raw diet, since she can see the results in Sadie. I will get the blood work over to the other vet tomorrow and see what he says. I am not freaking out or anything yet. I was more curious if the BUN was a direct connection with a raw diet. What I have taken away from this that it should not elevate the BUN dramatically, but it could have something to do with it. Thanks

 

[Sadies Mom]

I also forgot to mention......I have no problem adding fruits and veggies to her diet, and might do that. I would assume I should steam the veggies or just give it to her intact? I have to be careful with the fruit since fruit sugar (or any sugar for that matter) seems to give her diarrhea. I have been giving her frozen green beans as a training treat and she seems to be tolerating that and a few bites of banana is fine.

 

[ruthcatrin]

SOME dogs do get a rise in their BUN, and a 15point raise wouldn't be huge if her values weren't already high. So Its possible the raw diets the cause.

Theres arguements over steamed vs raw vs pureed vegis, I'd say which ever works best for her.

 

[DennasMom]

Whew. Good read, here, too!

I had read the same thing, SadiesMom, that a raw diet can lead to slightly elevated BUN levels, and is nothing to worry about. Whether the numbers you're seeing are 'slight' or not, I have no clue. Glad to hear you're going to see a holistic vet, hopefully they'll have some insights and suggestions.

As for fruits and veggies - since Sadie has bad reactions to some, that tells me right there that she doesn't need them (those particular ones anyway) - her system rejects them. Since you've made the link between sugar and diarrhea, you're ahead of the game there!

Denna will eat anything, so she does get lots of fruit and veggies. I've read that they digest better if they're well ground/blended (Denna gets my juicer pulp), cooked, or previously frozen, all of which help break down cell walls before the dog's system sees them. Of course, that a food needs some sort of pre-processing to be made bio-available to the dog, pretty much tells me it's not what their system was designed to run on...

But, I've also read studies (via Dr. Mercola's site, I think), that suggest dogs on a raw diet with added fruits and veggies do have lower instances of some diseases. Not sure if it's a statistically significant number... but, since I have left-over juicer pulp, and Denna likes it... I'll share!

Good luck understanding all the lab results! Glad we have Ruth and others here to help with it all!