Blood work done...What does it mean?????

[Sadies Mom]

Sadie was not eating at all over the weekend, was not her self at all. So I took her to the vet for a CBC, urin test and they also did a pancreatitus test. Her Creatnine was normal (they have actually gone down), but the BUN values has gone up dramatically. The vet told me her BUN is very high since I feed her raw and her food is all protein. This is the same vet that told me not to feed raw unless the animal was breathing in the past 12 hours. Is she right? Would the BUN be elevated because of her diet, or is her kidneys getting really bad. We are going for another ultrasound in the next few weeks.

 

[Geisthexe]

BUN elevated & RAW Diet

BUN is high means
A blood urea nitrogen (BUN) test measures the amount of nitrogen in your blood that comes from the waste product urea. Urea is made when protein is broken down in your body. Urea is made in the liver and passed out of your body in the urine.

A BUN test is done to see how well your kidneys are working. If your kidneys are not able to remove urea from the blood normally, your BUN level rises. Heart failure, dehydration, or a diet high in protein can also make your BUN level higher.

What type of RAW Diet are you on?
BARF?
PREY MODEL?
Etc?
Please list what's in your food?
We just spoke about this in the CE Nutrition corse I took yesterday...

 

[Sadies Mom]

She is on the Prey Model Raw. She gets beef, pork, venison, beef heart, turkey necks and chicken leg quarters. Organs consists of liver and kidney right now. Her Urine test came back normal and the pancreas test was negative.

 

[Geisthexe]

Can I ask why you would feed a dog as if its a cat (true carnivore)?
Dogs are Omnivores.so they need vegetation in there diet to help to get there nutrients. Without it you will continue to get sick.

I have been feeding a Raw Diet for 16 yrs and I like to call it "Omnivore Well Balance Diet"
My dogs have never gotten sick on it bc it is balanced

To many dogs get very sick on the BARF & PM diets

 

[ruthcatrin]

To many dogs get very sick on the BARF & PM diets

Um yah, the BARF model DOES contain fruits and vegi's.....and considering how many dogs here are fed PMR, and how many are fed it in the other communities I hang out in, and I can't think of a single one who's come back stating that their dog has gotten sick from it, and there's been essentially no studies on raw diets, I'd love to know where they're getting their numbers of " to many dogs" get sick on PMR other than the traditional bias and the "occasional dog" just like happens with the rare cases of breast cancer before the bitch is 2.

Sadies mom, raw diets aren't that high in protein in the overall scheme of things, 60 - 90% of the meats you're feeding are actually moisture. Having said that SOME PMR feeders do report slightly elevated BUN levels, but only slightly, not seriously high. Did the vet tell you what the actual numbers were?

 

[mx5055]

Sticking my head in here where I have no expertise, but SadiesMom...from what I understand from your previous posts, Sadie has had other various health issues? Not saying anything about any particular diet, just saying from my previous medical experience that an elevated BUN is not an insignificant thing, and if it doesn't come down, and diet is an issue, then you may have to change her diet to help lower her BUN. If you don't have confidence in what your vet is saying, get a copy of Sadie's blood tests and see another vet for a second opinion. Just my thoughts, and sorry if I'm speaking out of line

 

[Geisthexe]

I know the BARF diet contains veg/fruits but its not well balanced if you follow it

Ruth that's great you and others feed the PM diet .. I work in a hospital so I see more than you so as I don't just work in a general practice It's a GM, referral, speciality & emergency .. We see many many cases of things.

I am not going to argue with you bc you always have something to say to my post..

I will say I Sadie's mom I wish you the best with your dog. It will be a shame if she gets sicker from following a carnivore diet that is not made for DOGS.. Please keep me posted on what the blood says in 2 weeks. You do go back right?

 

[mx5055]

Here's some extra info: Creatine levels are used to determine to what stage kidney disease has advanced. The BUN level and other test results give additional information. Often, an elevated BUN with normal creatine can indicate very early kidney disease. However, BUN levels can be elevated for other reasons. If the dog wasn’t fasted for at least 12 hours before testing, BUN is likely to be high. A dog that has been on a high-protein diet or is slightly dehydrated can also have slightly elevated BUN results. Stress can also contribute. If the BUN levels are below the mid-thirties, with normal creatine, the chances are good that one of these factors is at work.

When BUN lebvels go above 80, it’s cause for concern even with normal creatine. A diet low in phosphorus and protein is usually recommended at that point, but further testing may be necessary. Problems other than kidney disease may be indicated. Thyroid disease is one possibility. Addison’s is another. A BUN over 80 often means a dog has uremia, and would be showing symptoms such as vomiting. Here's a site that tells you how to interpret the blood test used to track kidney disease:

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html#tests

 

[ruthcatrin]

Ruth that's great you and others feed the PM diet .. I work in a hospital so I see more than you so as I don't just work in a general practice It's a GM, referral, speciality & emergency .. We see many many cases of things.

I'm not even going to get into the arguement over whether dogs are carnivores or not, that one's so widely spread with so much varying data its rediculous. But when you have a dog come in, and they're fed raw, and you feel thats the cause of their health problems, do you actually question them as to the actual details of their diet or just take their "oh they're raw fed, dogs are carnivores" as the gospel word that they're feeding a balanced PMR diet?

 

[SavingGrace]

Elevated BUN can also point to liver shunt, I assume that's what the ultrasound will be looking for?

Does she drink a lot of water?

 

[ruthcatrin]

Here's some extra info: Creatine levels are used to determine to what stage kidney disease has advanced. The BUN level and other test results give additional information. Often, an elevated BUN with normal creatine can indicate very early kidney disease. However, BUN levels can be elevated for other reasons. If the dog wasn’t fasted for at least 12 hours before testing, BUN is likely to be high. A dog that has been on a high-protein diet or is slightly dehydrated can also have slightly elevated BUN results. Stress can also contribute. If the BUN levels are below the mid-thirties, with normal creatine, the chances are good that one of these factors is at work.

When BUN lebvels go above 80, it’s cause for concern even with normal creatine. A diet low in phosphorus and protein is usually recommended at that point, but further testing may be necessary. Problems other than kidney disease may be indicated. Thyroid disease is one possibility. Addison’s is another. A BUN over 80 often means a dog has uremia, and would be showing symptoms such as vomiting. Here's a site that tells you how to interpret the blood test used to track kidney disease:

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html#tests

That, which is why I wanted to know the numbers. This vet (frankly) has a history of fear-mongering when it comes to feeding raw, if you didn't get a copy of the lab-work I'd highly recommend doing so. And a 2nd opinion might not be a bad idea too considering the problems with this vet.

 

[mx5055]

Butting my nose in....why you 2 gonna get in a fight over raw feeding when SadiesMom is looking for answers/interpretation of her dog's blood test results? Not meaning to offend anyone....

 

[Geisthexe]

Ruth I agree vets do but the vets here know I feed a raw diet I have answer questions when they are hell bent on not listening to the vet about SD (mind you I agree with them about it)
But when BUNs are high and you feed RAW it's usually the case. Easy to fix by adding your greens & berries to the diet.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Butting my nose in....why you 2 gonna get in a fight over raw feeding when SadiesMom is looking for answers/interpretation of her dog's blood test results? Not meaning to offend anyone....

If she's going to post data thats not only incorrect but also has the potential to make Sadies Mom worry more....yes.

 

[Geisthexe]

MX I'm not going to argue

Ruth what did I post incorrect?

 

[ruthcatrin]

Ruth I agree vets do but the vets here know I feed a raw diet I have answer questions when they are hell bent on not listening to the vet about SD (mind you I agree with them about it)
But when BUNs are high and you feed RAW it's usually the case. Easy to fix by adding your greens & berries to the diet.

Untill Sadie's mom posts the numbers, and tells us whether it was a fasting bloodwork or not, you don't even know if it really was high or just her vet being a jerk, which this vet has a history of doing!

 

[Geisthexe]

Elevated BUN can also point to liver shunt, I assume that's what the ultrasound will be looking for?

Does she drink a lot of water?

Liver disease the BUN lowers

Dehydration would also have high Creatine levels

Which she said were normal

 

[ruthcatrin]

......

To many dogs get very sick on the BARF & PM diets

"to many dogs get very sick on...." thats your OPINION based on the your information from the hospital you work at, its ONE hospital, and sick dogs make up such a small percentage of the total population that drawing conclusions soley from that data skues it badly, there is no actual scientific data to that effect, and alot of anaccdotal evidence to the contrary.

 

[Geisthexe]

Ruth I have ONLY worked here a year and I have been feeding the raw diet for 16 yrs .. Do you math Ruth .. This hospital has nothing to do with what I know... Being a vet tech I am able of taking CE courses to educate myself .. Not do it through the Internet where anything CAN BE put on the net

 

[ruthcatrin]

Ruth I have ONLY worked here a year and I have been feeding the raw diet for 16 yrs .. Do you math Ruth .. This hospital has nothing to do with what I know... Being a vet tech I am able of taking CE courses to educate myself .. Not do it through the Internet where anything CAN BE put on the net

Then please post the data you used to come to that conclusion.