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Are Flock Guardian Breeds suitable for suburban life?

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Don't get me wrong...the rarity/beauty if NOT what makes me interested in this breed...it simply adds to it if that makes sense. Naturally we prefer certain "looks"

Oh I understand. Everyone has a look they prefer, and sometimes its the fact that its "different" that makes it catch your eye in the first place.

Don't know a thing about Estrela's so I can't help you there. Have you looked at Tibetan Mastiffs? Most of the Livestock Guardian breeds have some similer charactoristics, though there are signifigant variations too obviously. Stubborn, independantly intelligent, a HUGE drive to GUARD. But from there it varies. A Kuvaz for example is more likely to first attempt to herd its charge away from danger rather than confront (which doesn't mean it won't confront), where a TM or a CO WILL confront, probly first.

---------- Post added at 06:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------

Hopefully Brad will wander through and give you some more input. He doesn't post that often so I'm not sure how often he comes by.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Hopefully Brad will wander through and give you some more input. He doesn't post that often so I'm not sure how often he comes by.
 

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
My neighbor has two Ovcharka's, with quite different temperaments. Both are good guardians of my neighbor. The female is quite friendly and sociable unless she senses something amiss. She tolerates, and even enjoys being petted, although she won't seek it out, and is good with other dogs. The male is good with people he met in puppyhood, and tolerates others. I've never seen him behave aggressively when out being walked by my neighbor -- but then again both dogs are well trained and always under control. He will go absolutely mad and 'roar' when he is in his outside kennel, and dogs walk by, or strangers approach the house.

These dogs were imported and from different lines. My neighbor adopted them when they were dumped by their owner who was afraid of them. Both have developed hip dysplasia and the male elbow dysplasia as well. So, if you decide to go ahead acquiring an Ovcharka puppy, I would ensure health testing had been done for the parents.
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Can't speak for CO's but TMs (at least the non-Chinese-Lion coated ones) are a once a week brush unless they're shedding. WHich is cool.

Ruth I don't even now where I would start with the lion type TM's. Judging from the photos I've seen of Apollo he doesn't look too bad to brush, but I don't miss those days with bags of hair. If I knew how to knit I know I could have made some winter accessories.

Thanks Deutsche_doggen

Don't get me wrong...the rarity/beauty if NOT what makes me interested in this breed...it simply adds to it if that makes sense. Naturally we prefer certain "looks"

The other dog I was highly considering is the "Estrela Mountain Dog" I'm REALLY leaning towards getting one of these guys but want to be SURE it's a wise choice. I really prefer a VERY large dog and the Estrela would be roughly the size of my GSD. If there's any other breeds you all want to suggest feel free :)

---------- Post added at 06:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 PM ----------

Thanks,

Yes I've been in contact with Tamara Follet. I realize there is some contreversy surrounding her because of the Nat Geo clip...however, she offers extensive warranty on her pups as well as an insane amount of health garuntees/heart check with pups etc...she has been very helpful in providing info to me AND answering my questions. I think she is just brutally honest with her assessment of the CO's and others disagree.

No problem :) were not here to drill just want to help you ensure that your set. Often times we jump ship and ask questions later. I see you also have a thread on the dog forum, that is good. Keep asking questions.

I know what you mean most people are visual, myself included, just have to be sure you want the "whole" package, lol.

I don't know her or about the controversy the only thing that pissed me off about the special was that VERY inexperienced dog owner. For those that don't know check it out here.

[video=youtube;mMwRGVLuq1Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMwRGVLuq1Y[/video]
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Ok, watching the guy get dragged down the street after the UPS truck annoyed the heck out of me. I didn't have the sound on cause Apollo's sleeping and I'm enjoying my peace and quiet for the moment so I don't know if thats who you meant DD or not....

Oh, and speaking of grooming.....if you've not dealt with a thick coated breed like this you're in for a shock, easy to care for coat or not! Apollo doesn't have his full mane yet and I already can't use a furminator on him cause even the "long coat" version isn't "long" enough...
 

Oak Hill Farm

Well-Known Member
Hello. I have a CAS/CAO. Not the same but very similar. I did send Brad a message on FB to check this out.

My thoughts and what I tell potential owners:
1. Be ready to socialize more than you ever thought. Whatever you are thinking, double it! To make them remotely reliable in suburbia they have to see everything.

2. Fencing: I have yet to make anything to keep my guy in. He can go over 6 foot privacy, wire, chainlink, he can get under about anything. Electric works the best but will go through if properly motivated. I have heard the same from several owners.

3. They bark a lot. Especially at night. They dig, hope you don't like your garden , lol.

4. Independent , yes they are. But be prepared for that. That means obedience is marginal at best without extensive work. It also means they don't care to please you or be with you. If I didn't understand the breed like I do, I'd think my dog hates me. He is so different from every other breed I have ever owned or trained.

5. While I agree with you that your dog




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Oak Hill Farm

Well-Known Member
Sorry hit enter:

While your dog should be reliable off property, they will not tolerate some things. They will not like people near or giving them pats or cuddles. you have to learn to be an expert handler. Know your dogs signals, learn how/when to body block, redirect, bribe, lol. Always manage them when out, they are not happy go lucky.

All that being said you will not find a more loyal dog. My dog would protect my family and property with his last breath. When used how they were meant to be, they are breathtaking dogs, and perfect for their purpose.




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raechiemay

Well-Known Member
I know nothing about the breed & cannot give any sort of guidance here but being a fairly amateur mastiff owner (have only owned 2 EMs & seen 1 cane corso in person & met 1 DDB) I just wanted to say the dogs in the video are just what was said by OHF. They're breath taking. I can truly say that I would sh*t my pants if one came charging towards me. Definitely never a breed I will own especially with the possibility of it outweighing me by at least 50 lbs, I'll gladly admire from a "safe" distance via pictures lol.
 

Oak Hill Farm

Well-Known Member
I should also mention to look for a more amiable dog within the litter. I intended to use my dog largely as a single guardian over 30 acres, able to deter and fight coyotes and bobcats during calving/kidding. Thus I got a more independent, harder temp dog. There will always be somewhat of a variety. You may want to look for the puppy who likes human attention more, and is a calmer puppy in the litter (softer).

Still will have all the great qualities just mellowed a bit :)

PLEASE look for a good breeder. One who breeds proper tempermented, health cleared dogs. Who raises pups properly and who's opinion you trust to help pick out the perfect one for your situation.

I also know it's not easy to wait, but if kids and a move are in the near future, it may be advantageous to wait until you are more settled.


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Thanks!

Great to hear a personal perspective. I'm fine with everything you said...minus the fencing. I figured with training and what not they wouldn't try to get outside the fence ....at least that's what one breeder told me. She said her dogs never try to escape so long as they get their proper exercise and what not. Also I should mention that this dog won't be living outdoors. It will be inside with me and when I let it outside it's only for the bathroom/romp in the yard for a bit or to go somewhere.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Don't count on them not going over the fence due to training. At least not in a suburban setting. FAR to much going to be happening on the far side of that fence.....Also these breeds generally need more outside time than that.
 
Right, well that would be including daily walk/socialization of new places...I'm saying I wouldn't leave the dog unattended outside in the yard for hours on end
 

BradA1878

Well-Known Member
Hi, welcome. I own a CO, tho I've owned up to five adults in the past and have raised 2 litters. It is pretty apparent at as young as 4 weeks of age which puppy will be the more aggressive guardian, so an experienced breeder should be able to pick the right pup for you. However, I would only buy a CO from very stable parents - and I wouldn't take a breeder's word for that - I'd get out and see them myself. If that's not possible, then consider passing on the breed. Their is a LOT of shit-nerved CO out there, and they represent a HUGE liability.

As for keeping them in suburbia, I think it would be tough, but it can be done. Female CO bark A LOT, so keep that in mind... However, male COs can be a lot harder to handle than females.

Generally speaking, I have found CO to be pretty easy dogs. They listen to their owners better than most LGD and they are clean and typically chill in the house. But, as others have said, it's not the 90% of the time you have to worry about them, it's the 10% of the time when they are guarding that you have to worry. If your fence cannot contain your CO, no amount of exercise, shocking, or training will keep them from getting over the fence to deal witha potential threat - and remember what you see as a threat and what they see as a threat can be very different.

I have owned CO who didn't challenge fencing, and that were friendly to guests on our property, and then I have owned CO who would jump a 7' fence and were totally intolerant of any stranger on our property. This is why you need to know the parents of the pup you get and buy from an experienced breeder.

CO can be both the most scary and unpleasant dog you will ever encounter and the most loving and gentle dog - it just depends on what side of the spectrum you fall: enemy or friend.

You own a GSD, you should know, CO are nothing like GSD. CO are not biddable the way a GSD is, they also are not "handler hard" the way a GSD is - you can't beat your CO and have him still like you - they are soft with their owners, you need to be soft but firm with them. Most GSDs will take a slap from their owner and ask for another - that is not how CO are.

Now, having written all that, keep in mind, this breed is full of hype. You gotta cut through the hype - they are dogs, not bear. They learn like any other dogs breed - they love treats and cookies, and being pet by their owner - like any other dog... They are just a LOT of dog with a natural guardian instinct that lies very close to the surface.

When picking a breeder - I would be wary of any breeder of any breed that spends a lot of time talking negatively about other breeders. You gotta ask: why spend so much time deflecting? Also, I would be very suspicious of gimmicks *cough* ADR * cough* ... Dogs are complex beings, with complex behavioral confirmation, and personalities... These things cannot be quantified in a rating system - no more than they could be in human beings.

Good luck.
 
Thanks Brad!

So your recommendation is basically to make sure the parents are very well tempered and to get a pup that would show less agressive tendencies...and in that case it MIGHT do okay in a suburban setting...basically no garuntees. That's fine I'll most likely pass on the breed as I don't want to run into an issue say...if a kid is riding a scooter around the block and the CO has never seen a scooter and decides the kids a threat and takes off over the fence.

Is there another breed that you would recommend that has great guardian tendencies but that might do better in a more residential atmosphere? This is my only concern
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Some of the softer TM's maybe (still LOUD, still need dig guard under fence and likely a topper too, and to be honest I'm not sure some of the better breeders would be comfortable selling to a suburban setting), Kuvaz (they're not as large though usually and you said you wanted larger, which I can understand).

Also some of the individual, and more common, mastiff breeds have awesome guarding instinct while being more generally personable. Doesn't do much for that drive for the look of the CO (thats not a stab, I own a TM, I do understand the like for that look).

I'll have to think on it, but take a look at some of the other Livestock/flock guardian breeds, they're all different, some in subtle ways.
 
Yeah...I'm really starting to lean towards the Estrela Mountain Dog. A breeder is located 3 hours from me and from what I've seen in other peoples posts is the BEST breeder in NA for that type of dog. I really enjoy the look/personality of that dog...The breeder called it a good "medium" when compared to a CO...smaller in size and more manageable tendencies but still great guard instinct.

http://trailsendestrela.com/ ...the dog in the home page picture would be the father of the upcoming litter.

Just wish there was more info on these guys....lots of the stuff I've seen on the web is just a rehash of another website
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Handsome fellow! 3hrs isn't horrid, arrange to spend some time there, either several hours observing and interacting with the dogs or several visits. It'll give you a better feel for the dogs.