American VS English

[TWW]

Not sure what the deal is with AM's and the FL and west coast, but you can get a AM here in Ohio with little effort.
They look just about exact to a EM, yes they drool less, and there generally a little more narrow.
While about everyone goes on and on about healthier, I personally credit that to breeding in both AM and EM.
While they do have less hip and elbow dysplasia than EM's, they have spine issues, which I seen far less in EM's.
(By drool less, in NO way expect no drool, they do, just less)

As far as pure vs mix debate they are ckc since 2000, and they breed was only started 7 to 12 years prior, (huge debate on this).

Yes there is a BYB problem with them. Price range is all over the place, but then so is it with many mastiff breeds and what you want.

EM people will always dislike them, AM people will always chant "Better health and less drool". End of the day, your call.

I would strongly advise researching the breeder, and make sure of health tests, and get references. ( would advise this no matter which you decide on).
If they can't show directly back to Flying W Farms. DO NOT BUY.

Personally will always be a EM person, I can wipe drool 3 or 4 more times a day.

 

[LLJohnson10]

The Bullmastiff was one of my top 2. I was actually going back and forth on which one I liked more. I like the fact that they are quiet, protective, and that you can satisfy their excercise needs with walks and not intense exercise. I also love big dogs, and while the BM is big, I probably would prefer a little bigger.

Being brachycephalic was not a big issue with me. I believe most mastiffs snore, and don't like extreme heat.

The thing that surprised me the most was how laid back the Bullmastiff was. I know it probably isn't true for all of them, but my puppy is much more relaxed & affectionate than any other dog i've had (I currently have a German Shepherd, and have also owned a pit bull mix, chow chow, and lab).

The other thing is that the drool isn't nearly as bothersome as I thought it would be before I owned a mastiff. In the future i'd definitely like to own another Bullmastiff. Other breeds i'd probably consider when that time comes is a Boerboel, which i've grown to like a lot since joining this forum, and also the English Mastiff.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Keeping in mind that I've never personally met an American Mastiff....

My biggest issue is the cross out with the Anatolian. Anatolian's are NOT EMs, in temperament. And no, saying that the Anatolian just adds "some extra guard" does not explain the Anatolian temperament. Now I understand that at this point, with a true AM, the Anatolian is a fairly small percentage. But if you get an AM who gets a larger helping of that Anatolian temperament, especially if you've never handled an LGD or primitive type before, you're going to be in for a shock.

Now that doesn't mean that I don't think that the cross might have its good points.

Although I haven't actually checked I can believe that with a good sized infusion of Anatolian the the breed would have a lower risk of the health problems that plague the EM. On the other hand, by all accounts the actual percentage of Anatolian in the breed in the current generation is pretty small.

And if you really want an EM, and just would like less drool, you can get that from a pure EM line just by being a bit extra picky as to the parents of your pup. Not all EMs are drool factories. By picking parents with less drastic and less open flews (who's parents also had less drastic flews) you increase your chances of having a pup with less drastic flews resulting in far less drool problems.

 

[Slinger-girl]

Personally, I would look into a different type of Mastiff. If the EM is just too big and drooly a Bullmastiff might be your speed, I'm sure there is still some drool, but it is the big pendulous flews that really make EM drool machines.

I would point you towards a reputable breeder of purebreds mastiff (any breed of mastiff) before a reputable breeder of a mixed breed mastiff dog and here is why:

A reputable breeder literally has a century or more of dogs behind a pedigree. Each line contains information about health, temperamet, structure etc, that acts as kind of a blue print to follow, combined with phenotype, you get consistency and through selective line breeding a breeder can further their consistency in a line.

What this means to a puppy buyer is a breeder who has a great understanding long term of the lines they are using, a goal they are striving for and consistency in temperament, confirmation and health that you just cannot get from a breeder trying to develop a new breed, that is why it takes years and years, decades and decades of selective breeding, line breeding and even culling to come up with a consistent breed type. You just cannot get cosistency from someone "developing" a breed that I would think someone would want.

I would go further to say this is more important in working/guard breeds than say a goldendoole or labradoodle, those may be very active breeds, but generally speaking either purebred would be okay with a novice dog owner. Guard/Working breeds are different and the level of work needed can vary hugely between the variety of purebred mastiff dogs out there, let alone one that is being developed.

Just my .02 worth, lol. If you are looking for smaller, more compact, with consistency I would just look at different mastiff breeds, such as the Bullmastiff and see if one of those suites your lifestyles..there are some gorgeous choices out there that is for sure.

I also add just one thing to ponder, a person that is truly trying to develope a new breed approaches that in a very determined manner, scientific and will often place pups not used in pet homes, under pet contracts or just with close friends and family, they often aren't seen advertising litters on the internet, they are hardcore breeders that have to make tough decisions and spend a lifetime doing and making those decisions.

 

[cellardoorv]

Without trying to offend the breed, sometimes I think EMs can look a bit... sloppy? I've seen rather fine specimens of EMs that aren't overly obese/loose in the face but more often than not, they're just kinda messy looking. The American Mastiff is trying to promote a "tighter" version of the Mastiff, I believe, which unfortunately to me, leaves the head (one of the greatest features of an EM IMO) rather Dane-y looking, especially with the females, which is what our future puppy would be. Though I am gathering that female EMs are usually tighter all around, in body and mouth.

I do love a great looking Bullmastiff, though as LLJohnson mentioned before, something bigger would be ideal. Having owned and currently own an American Bulldog, there isn't much of a size difference, especially in height.

As far as I know, all of the "true" American Mastiff breeders (Flying W dogs) in the country ONLY sell pet-quality pups with spay/neuter contracts, which leaves the breeding stock in the hands of the original breeders, which consist of 8 kennels in the US.

 

[cellardoorv]

I should mention that while I think it's noteworthy in my case, the whole "drool" content ISN'T my driving factor in choosing a Molosser breed. I just think it's a nice perk if I don't have to constantly wipe up tassels of slobber from everything, though I know with most Mastiff-type dogs, it's a fact of life and love. My main goal with this is to combine my love of really huge dogs with my desire to NOT run daily marathons to keep them happy. A really big breathing area rug will do just fine.

 

[LLJohnson10]

A reputable breeder literally has a century or more of dogs behind a pedigree. Each line contains information about health, temperamet, structure etc, that acts as kind of a blue print to follow, combined with phenotype, you get consistency and through selective line breeding a breeder can further their consistency in a line.

This statement isn't entirely accurate, there are a lot of breeds that have come along within the last century. Because of that fact, I disagree with the assertion that to be "reputable" a breeder is only using animals with over a century behind their pedigree.

Selecting a dog that has been around for a long time does give you a better idea of what to expect as far as temperament, but that isn't a guarantee either. There are plenty of reputable breeders who produce guardian breeds who aren't any more suited for guarding than my Lab. Even though they work to limit this, it happens.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Without trying to offend the breed, sometimes I think EMs can look a bit... sloppy? I've seen rather fine specimens of EMs that aren't overly obese/loose in the face but more often than not, they're just kinda messy looking. The American Mastiff is trying to promote a "tighter" version of the Mastiff, I believe, which unfortunately to me, leaves the head (one of the greatest features of an EM IMO) rather Dane-y looking, especially with the females, which is what our future puppy would be. Though I am gathering that female EMs are usually tighter all around, in body and mouth.

Again, you can get EMs with this style, you just have to be extra picky.

 

[MichelleParlier]

Can always check out the American Mastiff Family forum and Facebook page. Over 1100 members+ who can give first-hand experience regarding *everything* American Mastiff.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

 

[Dale]

Or if you keep looking on the internet , you can even find the other six or seven types of mix breeds trying to call themselves american mastiffs.

 

[TWW]

No. by the council there are 11, plus there are those that came in with the 2000 ckc, along with like any other there are those that ignore, because it is so hard to enforce across state lines.

Without trying to offend the breed, sometimes I think EMs can look a bit... sloppy? I've seen rather fine specimens of EMs that aren't overly obese/loose in the face but more often than not, they're just kinda messy looking. The American Mastiff is trying to promote a "tighter" version of the Mastiff, I believe, which unfortunately to me, leaves the head (one of the greatest features of an EM IMO) rather Dane-y looking, especially with the females, which is what our future puppy would be. Though I am gathering that female EMs are usually tighter all around, in body and mouth.

I do love a great looking Bullmastiff, though as LLJohnson mentioned before, something bigger would be ideal. Having owned and currently own an American Bulldog, there isn't much of a size difference, especially in height.

As far as I know, all of the "true" American Mastiff breeders (Flying W dogs) in the country ONLY sell pet-quality pups with spay/neuter contracts, which leaves the breeding stock in the hands of the original breeders, which consist of 8 kennels in the US.

 

[cellardoorv]

Or if you keep looking on the internet , you can even find the other six or seven types of mix breeds trying to call themselves american mastiffs.

Within the past couple weeks, I've been doing just that, but have only consistently found something called "American Mastiff Panja" but I believe that's something else entirely, which incorporates Rottweiler and Pitbull. What other mixes have you found that use the EM referring themselves as American Mastiffs? I think the issue is that people see "mastiff" interchangeable with any kind of molosser breed, not necessarily an English Mastiff.

And TWW, while I realize there are 11 breeders of the Flying W dogs, my post referred to the ones in the US, which I stated correctly; 8.

As with any purchase of any dog, I guess as a breeder you can't be 100% sure that your buyer adheres to the spay/neuter, unless the dogs are altered before being picked up. But I do think they're doing the best that they possibly can. I believe they don't ship their dogs, which keeps most of the pups close by the breeder and easier to access/check up on. I know it doesn't completely eliminate the scenario of having the dogs hundreds of miles away, but as a prospective buyer, I know I would want something as close as possible as well.

As far as the CKC is concerned, there are currently only three breeders listed for the American Mastiff. Two are part of the eight listed with the American Mastiff Breeder Council (AMBC) and the third had it's recognition stripped from the AMBC for shady breeding practices, that anyone curious about the American Mastiff can access court documents with a simple Google search, as I did. Even still, the aforementioned breeder STILL has original Flying W dogs (although I'm not sure if they are still in business, the website looks a bit outdated; from 2009) It looks as though that the founders of this "new breed" is doing a pretty good job running a tight ship.

 

[cellardoorv]

http://www.americanmastiffbreederscouncil.com/American Mastiff Rescue.htm

That, in itself, is worth noting. To me, nothing about that screams "Back Yard Breeder", but moreso dedicated individuals trying to create and protect something they are passionate about.

 

[cellardoorv]

Can always check out the American Mastiff Family forum and Facebook page. Over 1100 members+ who can give first-hand experience regarding *everything* American Mastiff.

Thanks for the suggestion, I didn't even think of that. How is your AM fairing with your family, Michelle? I set up a reservation for next month to visit the farm of the nearest AM breeder to me (thankfully only 30 miles!). Can't wait to see 20+ of these animals all in one area. I'll keep track and see if there's any extra Anatolian-y ones who try to attack

 

[MichelleParlier]

I apologize in advance for this post, which I guarantee is going to be LONG, and probably much more information than you've ever wanted to know. LOL Sorry!! Just wanted to try to touch on all the issues touched upon on this thread and some of the other AM threads I've read.



Firstly, I, as an owner (not a breeder) of the AM, started the AM Family Forum over 7 years ago and Facebook page on my own dime, solely because I think the breed is wonderful! There are zero ads, so I don't generate any money for the forum. Wanted to compare notes, photos, experiences, etc., with my fellow AM owners and lovers. ALL breeds are welcome on both sites, and we have many, many EM owners.



There IS another breed who call themselves “American Mastiffs, PANJA.” As far as I'm aware (and, I've been around the “AM World” for only about 15 years, this is the only other breed who use the “AM” name. http://www.google.com/#q=american+mastiff+panja




There are only 8 AMBC (American Mastiff Breeders Council) Breeders in the US. There are 2 AMBC breeders outside the US. These breeders are the only breeders who breed the “true” American Mastiff” created by Fredericka Wagner in Piketon, Ohio, over 30 years ago. Just to be clear, AMs are NOT a 50/50 mix between EMs and Anatolians. No mixes have taken place for many, many years. The breed has been deemed “true” in 2000.



AMBC breeders: http://www.americanmastiffbreederscouncil.com/American%20Mastiff%20Breeders.htm


Regarding the bashing of the CKC (Continental Kennel Club), some interesting info:
http://www.continentalkennelclub.com/specialfaqs.aspx


Regarding the “elite” AKC, here's some interesting info: P.S., I'm extremely elated that our AMBC breeders will NEVER pursue AKC recognition!!!
http://amfamilyforum.net/Forum/index.php/topic,7015.0.html


My personal “Thank You” to the AMBC for NOT wanting to pursue AKC recognition:
http://amfamilyforum.net/Forum/index.php/topic,5062.0.html


Regarding supposed AMs ending up in rescue: ALL AMBC breeders have been microchipping for several years now. ALL proven AMs needing to find new homes WILL be taken back by their breeders. I can personally attest to this. I have been involved in several rehomes/rescues. In fact, I adopted one myself.


My personal experience regarding AMs/EMs (my own dos):



AM, Murphy, 211 pounds. Flying W Farms. Born 2005. My 9.5-year-old boy is the epitome of the gentle giant. He has been a Certified Therapy Dog through Therapy Dogs International, Inc, since he was one year old. We have visited retirement homes, mental health facilities, and women and children's shelters. Super healthy. Only “sickness” was a very minor UTI once. No drool, per se, unless immediately after a large drink of water. Very loving and loyal!


My AM, Brody, 225 pounds: He was a rehome at 6 months old. He started having seizures at 5 weeks old. His breeder was very forthcoming with this. Nothing was found to cause this on extensive testing. I also discovered after I adopted him that he was extremely hard of hearing. He could hear some sounds, but he could not identify where they were coming from. Super sweet and loving boy. He did not drool, but was THE messiest drinker on the face of the earth! He would lay his head IN the water bowl and chomp at the water. When he was finished, he would walk away from the water bowl with a huge mouthful of water and trail it as he walked away.

Unfortunately, he was diagnosed at 3.5 years old with autoimmune hepatitis and died a few weeks later, on June 15, 2013. As much as it could be a pain to let him out up to 6 times per night (his meds made him very thirsty = needing to pee a LOT), I miss him VERY much!!!



My EM, Frankie, 180 pounds:
He was a rescue I adopted at 5 years old. Was bred by a so-called “reputable” breeder, who had the #1 Specialty Dog in 2005. Had bilateral TPLO surgery before I was able to bring him home. Diagnosed with Wobbler's syndrome, degenerative myelopathy, had a spinal cord stroke (aka fibrocartilaginous emboli) and passed away right before his 8th birthday. He was a GORGEOUS apricot boy who was very sweet and loving. Drooled like a faucet!!! I constantly had to wipe slingers from the floor, the walls, the CEILING and, of course, him! Wouldn't change it for the world though. He was a sweetie! I miss him!! http://amfamilyforum.net/Forum/index.php/topic,814.0.html



My EM, Maggie, 170 pounds:
Maggie was also a rescue. She, like Frankie, was AKC registered. She was the product of a puppymill and bought on a whim at a petshop for a Christmas present. Ten months later, she was in rescue. She was turned down by rescue the first time her family tried to surrender her at 10 month old It is assumed that she was not socialized properly and/or mistreated... but, it took her foster mom 4 months to be able to touch her. I adopted her at 14 months old. She became the BIGGEST “Mama's girl.” Super affectionate towards me. Loved to give “hugs” by laying her body into mine. Like my AMs, she was not a drooler. Throughout the rest of her life, I was the only one who was able to touch her. She died on December 1, 2013 from pancreatic cancer at barely 8 years old.

http://amfamilyforum.net/Forum/index.php/topic,7022.0.html


Regarding the “aggressive tenancies” of the AM based on the literal minute Anatolian blood that courses through their veins, I will I will admit that I'm a bit tired of reading about it. AMs are NO more aggressive than any other breed. The ridiculous stories you sometimes read about have never, ever been substantiated! Ever! In addition, not everyone knows this.... but it was my ENGLISH Mastiff that attacked and killed my 90-pound German Shepherd mix. Do I condemn the EM breed as a whole? No! She was a dog! We, as humans, tend to humanize our dogs way too much!


Anyone who have any questions, etc., regarding the American Mastiff (Flying W Farms lines), please always feel free to check out the AM Family Forum and AM Family Facebook page. Both are public viewing sites/members-only posting sites. Please always feel free to email/message me too if you have any specific questions.


Again. I apologize for the length of my post! Thanks so much for reading!


Michelle

 

[Dale]

Maybe this lady is not telling the truth? You can get whatever dog that you want and I hope that you are very happy. Here is a post that I found about the amma . I do not know even if the names are real or not but something I thought you might want to check out before you spend your money.

...I wish my husband and I had come across your website sooner. We bought an American Mastiff from Orion Farms (Axle) and he began showing aggressive behavior at 3 1/2 months old already. We worked with two trainers, our Vet and finally a Behaviorist with a PHD. It was determined that it wasn't a question of IF Axle would bite, it was WHEN.
The breeders (Kevin and Melanie Ware) told us we could bring the 5 month old puppy back and either choose another puppy or get our money back. Their trainer/birthing supervisor happened to be there when we arrived and she told us that she's seen the freeze-glare-snarl-growl before BUT she could Knock it out of Axle!! We asked for our money back. They promised to send it but it never came. Instead they send us an email accusing us of starving Axle and that they are now considering this a rescue from us!!
We've already gotten a letter from our Vet that this is ludicrous and we decided to get a lawyer. Kevin and Melanie Ware should be ashamed of themselves!

 

[cellardoorv]

Maybe this lady is not telling the truth? You can get whatever dog that you want and I hope that you are very happy. Here is a post that I found about the amma . I do not know even if the names are real or not but something I thought you might want to check out before you spend your money.

...I wish my husband and I had come across your website sooner. We bought an American Mastiff from Orion Farms (Axle) and he began showing aggressive behavior at 3 1/2 months old already. We worked with two trainers, our Vet and finally a Behaviorist with a PHD. It was determined that it wasn't a question of IF Axle would bite, it was WHEN.
The breeders (Kevin and Melanie Ware) told us we could bring the 5 month old puppy back and either choose another puppy or get our money back. Their trainer/birthing supervisor happened to be there when we arrived and she told us that she's seen the freeze-glare-snarl-growl before BUT she could Knock it out of Axle!! We asked for our money back. They promised to send it but it never came. Instead they send us an email accusing us of starving Axle and that they are now considering this a rescue from us!!
We've already gotten a letter from our Vet that this is ludicrous and we decided to get a lawyer. Kevin and Melanie Ware should be ashamed of themselves!

Perhaps you should read further into Axle's story (as I did a few nights prior) and you'll realize that Axle was, in fact, malnourished, and rehomed to an owner who actually, SURPRISE, took time with him and training. And you will also find out Axle is now an excellent ambassador to his breed, and used to help train other dogs, and a wonderful family companion. I found the excerpt to help ya out

"Hi! I am the new owner of the dog of which you speak of. His name is Axel. I have owned him now for 10 months. He is one of the best dogs I have ever owned. I was his dog trainer and fell in love with him. I did let Axel go out on a trial run with possible new owners. They already owned another dog and decided because of Axel's superior manners, they needed some training for their other dog before bringing another dog into their house. So they ask me to train their dog to be as well mannered as Axel. In the meantime, I fell in love with Axel and took him home to live with me. I am so glad he came back to us and they did not listen to the trainers that said to put him down. I hope these people got their money back from their trainers because he has been a terrific dog and a very easy case to work on. He did resource guard at first because of not being fed properly. Apparently the vet told these owners to feed him 2 c. of food twice a day. As a previous Mastiff owner, I know they can eat alot when they are growing. My dogs ate up to 12 c. a day sometimes. This dog was clearly not getting enough food. He was a little on the thin side when he came to us. I also wanted to address the growl, snarl, stare of which she mentioned. I did see that in other dogs I have trained but never once was it a mastiff!! I wanted them to stay when they brought Axel back and work with me because I thought it was something minor we could knock out and they could have their wonderful dog back. They did not want to do that. They also did not send back to us what the contract said to receive their money back. They needed two vets signatures to adeem him aggressive. Apparently they did not have success with that. We have never heard anything from them again. I would like to say that I love Mastiffs of all kinds. I would never speak so harshly about your dogs. I find the people on this forum very aggressive and harsh. Hopefully in the future people will be kinder to each other. I don't think it has to be this way. I would not speak of another dog or person this way ever. Here is a picture of my Axel. Please make sure this gets back to the original owners. "

 

[MichelleParlier]

Maybe this lady is not telling the truth? You can get whatever dog that you want and I hope that you are very happy. Here is a post that I found about the amma . I do not know even if the names are real or not but something I thought you might want to check out before you spend your money.

...I wish my husband and I had come across your website sooner. We bought an American Mastiff from Orion Farms (Axle) and he began showing aggressive behavior at 3 1/2 months old already. We worked with two trainers, our Vet and finally a Behaviorist with a PHD. It was determined that it wasn't a question of IF Axle would bite, it was WHEN.
The breeders (Kevin and Melanie Ware) told us we could bring the 5 month old puppy back and either choose another puppy or get our money back. Their trainer/birthing supervisor happened to be there when we arrived and she told us that she's seen the freeze-glare-snarl-growl before BUT she could Knock it out of Axle!! We asked for our money back. They promised to send it but it never came. Instead they send us an email accusing us of starving Axle and that they are now considering this a rescue from us!!
We've already gotten a letter from our Vet that this is ludicrous and we decided to get a lawyer. Kevin and Melanie Ware should be ashamed of themselves!

Yeeaaaaahhhh!!! I know ALL about Axel!!

He's doing WONDERFULLY with his new owner, Kathy!! A wonderful boy!! Here's the
post... and lots of followups (including from his new owner) on another EM forum.

http://www.worldmastiffforum.com/post/another-aggressive-american-mastiff-4593130?highlight=axel&pid=38981117#post38981117

 

[cellardoorv]

And not to mention, Dale, the SEVERAL threads on this very forum alone dealing with aggressive tendencies among the "purebred mastiffs", each and every one of the breeds. Yet you find the ONE post on a Google search about ONE American Mastiff, which has been address by the proper means (right nutrition, proper training, time and patience, you know, the stuff ALL DOGS should have regardless of breed or issue) and now you condemn the whole breed?

Seems rather silly, don't you think?

 

[Dale]

First off, I was not sending that about the aggressive nature of this particular dog. I was sending that to a person looking to purchase a dog and possibly from a breeder that would not give him his money back if need be. I see where you have said that the person that purchased this dog only got one vet saying that it was aggressive and not two like the contract says sorry I never seen that. however if I have a dog that is biting me and I only have one vet in town where I live I'm only getting one vet to sign it also. A lot of people have been burned by a lot of breeders and myself if I would get a designer breed I personally would stay away from this particular breeder. I personally feel where there's smoke there's fire most of the time. This person ask for informatio and I was giving him information that is out there.
I am bored and have no life so I looked for him. Is that wrong?

Now that you bring it up though, about only finding this one post. I did find that a little interesting and odd .it seemed to me that almost every thing that was out online a bout the American mastiff seemed censored. It was like this was the one that snuck out. With all of you knowing about this one post that is online "almost immediately" it almost even makes me think it even more . Lord knows I don't know every mastiff by name. Just with my limited knowledge I have no idea about all the threads and negative posts about all the mastiff breeds that are out there so it does make me wonder how you all knew about this one dog .
people have their own opinion And I have mine just like you have yours.
I did not condemn anything or breed. So maybe it is you that should read what I wrote.