A Very Controversial Topic....

Discussion in 'General Mastiff Discussion' started by Elana P, Feb 4, 2017.

  1. Elana P

    Elana P Active Member


    Thank you.
     
  2. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    personally i have no problem giving them the opportunity to fail and correcting them when they do ............. apparently the dog finds a difference in the situation when your around and when your not , might be something you want to address ........ while i've never used a crate , i don't imagine it's an appropriate cure for "separation anxiety"
     
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  3. Hiraeth

    Hiraeth Active Member

    I have a huge problem with setting dogs up for failure and then correcting them. That is, in my opinion, not an appropriate way to train an animal. Also, Zephyr was abused in his last home, and correcting him is not something that is constructive to teaching him new things.

    The ONLY time I find that type of training acceptable is aversion training where if the aversion isn't taught it could mean death for the dog. So for instance, using P+ to create an aversion to snakes, or car chasing.

    I spend more time working with Zephyr on his issues in a week than most people spend training their dogs in a month. We work on basic obedience, behavior modification (BM) and counter conditioning (CC) for his reactivity and BM and CC for his generalized anxiety. We're working on CGC training, as well. On top of that, he gets two leashed walks of 20 minutes and an hour off leash run nearly every day (I miss a few days a month). Believe me, I don't view the crate as a 'cure' for any problems. It's simply the only way to keep him safe when I'm gone.

    Again. You're not answering my questions. If you have a dog who doesn't display destructive chewing behaviors in your presence, and who will destroy your house and risk its own life while you're away, what would you do with it? And how do you train it?

    Seems like you're avoiding these questions because you don't actually have the answers.
     
  4. Elana P

    Elana P Active Member

    Hello All,

    If you will go back to my first post on the subject, you will see, that I was concerned about the "OVERUSE OF CRATING" by many people.

    I don't think anyone can deny, that this happens, and that this is not a good thing. If anyone on here thinks that "overcrating a dog" is a good thing, then you really have a problem, and SHOULD NOT HAVE A DOG.

    @Boxergirl
    Sorry for the overload of information on the subject. It's just that there is so so much information out there, that it was difficult to decide what to include and what not to include.

    I just wanted to show, that there are many people out there in the big world, who are against crating, and many others who are against OVER CRATING.

    @marke
    Thank you for backing up the idea of actually training your dog.
    I have done it with two distructive chewers, and the behaviour was stopped, and both lived to a ripe old age, as happy dogs.

    @Hiraeth

    Sigh.....
    Woman, you try my patience.....

    If you need to be taken by the hand and showed by a 1-2-3 method how to train your dog, then what can I say? You need to be working closely with a dog trainer, not taking out your frustrations on people on this Forum.

    Your dog, (as you yourself have admitted) has a problem. I would be spending my time working with him, not wasting my time ranting and raving on the Forum.

    *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***

    No where in this thread, did I say that all people who use crates should be whipped in public, and burned at the stake.

    If one feels the need to use a crate while training your dog, then by all means, do so. But please don't tell me, that crating a dog (any dog) for 10-18 hours a day is a means of training them, or that it's done for their own good.

    Different methods, work for different people and for different dogs.

    What I am against, is crating dogs day and night, for sometimes the better part of a 24 hour period. In MY OPINION this is cruel, and apparantly there are many people out there who agree with me.

    I don't have to justify my thoughts, opinions, or methods of working with dogs or raising dogs to anyone.
     
  5. Boxergirl

    Boxergirl Well-Known Member

    It wasn't an overload of information, Elana. I am perfectly able to analyze a lot of information and make intelligent conclusions based upon what I've read. My problem was that it was a wall of text with a PETA article at the end. That last made me have zero desire to wade through the rest of the text above. My suggestion was to post each article separately so that it was more user friendly. It's just easier on the eyes.

    Nowhere in this thread did anyone advocate crating a dog day and night for the better part of 24 hours. Nowhere. As far as Hiraeth needing to be shown 1-2-3 how to train a dog? That's laughable. She's taken the time to give specific and knowledgeable advice to people time and time again. She has been very generous with her knowledge, as have many other members. We all need to remember that many people read these forums and don't post. Someone saying "I'd train my dog" or any other of the vague answers often posted is not helpful. Just like saying to "be your dog's leader" isn't helpful. "Training" and being a "leader" mean different things to different people. That's why I always ask people for detailed answers. That way your methods can be shared and perhaps help someone to make an informed decision about whether crating is for them. None of us asked for specific training details to put you on the spot or try to say their methods are better than yours.
     
    Nik likes this.
  6. Hiraeth

    Hiraeth Active Member

    I want your 1-2-3 training method, not because I don't know how to train, but because I 100% do not believe that you have a training method that would work for a dog like Zephyr. If you claim that you've trained your destructive chewers to not chew, then *tell us how*. Maybe you'd actually help someone who is reading this thread and has a destructive dog and could use your advice.

    You started this thread and are clearly pretty hazy on how many (or most of us) use crates effectively. I don't think a SINGLE USER on this forum thinks crating a dog is ideal, or crating for 10 or more hours a day is acceptable.
     
  7. Smokeycat

    Smokeycat Well-Known Member

    That doesn't always work. Jiggers knows he isn't allowed into the garbage as he was taught to leave it alone. That doesn't mean that there aren't occasions that he decides that he is going into it. We've recorded it to see if there is a cause or pattern that we haven't spotted since activity level before we leave doesn't necessarily correspond. The one thing that did become clear is that he waits until the car has left, just going out of sight for 10 minutes doesn't work. You couldnt set him up. We even tried 1 person leaving in the car while the other stayed hidden. Every video that had him getting in the garbage he did it in the first 5 minutes and then just laid down and napped until we got home. As soon as he saw the car pull up he would go into his 'cave' and hide. His cave is about half the size of his crate but is his favorite spot in the living room. The last time he tried to get into the garbage when anyone was home he was 5 months old. He turns 6 next month.

    Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
     
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  8. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    do you have any idea how many dogs that tear up their houses are surrendered and put down ? i'd bet a lot more than get bit by snakes or run over by cars .............. corrections are not for teaching a dog what to do , their for teaching a dog what not to do ................ I just recently moved 3 almost 2 yr old kennel dogs into the house , i'd give them access to a couple rooms and just sit there for hours telling them what not to do , never a need to tell them what they could do , because they tried to do everything , the things they didn't get corrected for they continued to do , the stuff they got corrected for they discontinued to do .....as they settled down i'd start leaving the room , until I could leave the room without them following , and just built off that..... it's odd your well trained calm dog doesn't settle down the pup , I've used acclimated dogs to settle down some neurotic messes I've been given ............. corrections are not across the board , each dog is different in what they find offensive , some take very little , some take a lot , you need to be able to identify what the dog needs ...... they all can take corrections , even neurotic messes ...........
     
  9. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    I assure you could stop the dog from getting in the garbage with electricity , but why would you want to , easier and more humane just to put it where they can't get it
     
  10. Smokeycat

    Smokeycat Well-Known Member

    Your right about making it difficult to get being most humane and it is what I'm doing. I also think that short of hitting him using electricity to train is the worst way of training, far more inhumane than a crate. Before anyone asks I've felt a shock collar and I will not put one on a dog I own.
    It shows how everyone has their own ideas about what is good and what is bad. And how one person would solve a behavior problem isn't how the next person would.

    Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
     
  11. Hiraeth

    Hiraeth Active Member

    Zeph was beaten by his previous owners. The second he thinks he's done something wrong that might get corrected, he shuts down. Lays on the floor and won't participate in any further training because he's expecting a beating. I've only had him for 7 months - it could be that Titan's influence may help him mature into a more confident dog as we move forward. But when I first picked him up, he was terrified of everything. He didn't wag his tail, he didn't have much of a personality, he was just a shut down and abused dog who didn't do anything but try to avoid being hit. Even a raised voice would send him scurrying (into his crate, actually, because he LOVES his crate and paws at it to get in there when I've shut the door).

    7 months in and there's a glimmer of personality there. He wags his tail. He plays with Titan and initiates games of fetch with me. It would really break my heart (and his, I think) if I were to administer even a minor verbal correction. I want him to know that only good things happen when I'm around, not bad and scary things that remind him of his former family. Is his case unusual? Yes. I think he's the softest dog I've ever met. A combination of bad genetics, being raised in what was likely a puppy mill, being taken from his littermates too early (5.5 weeks old), no socialization and his former owners being abusive is a perfect storm that has created a giant mess of a dog.

    When I train, I teach a dog what TO DO. I personally find that saying 'yes, good, that is what I want', is more fulfilling and effective than saying 'no, don't do that, that's bad, don't do that either, no, no, no'. Titan has not *once in his life* been corrected. And magically, he's a stable and well-trained 19 month old dog with ZERO behavioral issues who has been allowed free roam of the house from 10 months of age. Good genetics? Yes. I can't take all of the credit. But I can take some. My training works for me and for my dogs. Each dog is different. Many people (most owners and trainers I know, actually), use corrections effectively and their dogs respond fine and life goes on and I don't think they're bad owners or bad trainers. Most of them also use crates, because we all understand that *preventing unwanted behaviors* is ideal, and *punishing unwanted behaviors that haven't been prevented* means a failure has occurred somewhere in training or management.
     
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  12. Nik

    Nik Well-Known Member

    This is exactly what I meant about super smart dogs knowing the difference between when you are there and when you are gone. If your dog is smart enough there is no setting it up. They know the sound of the car and they know when someone is still home. The apple spray works with Diesel but there is only so much I can spray. I had wondered about using a web cam that allows you talk (I recently got one but have been sick since getting it). It will be interesting to see if yelling at them via the cam would stop unwanted behaviors or if they will quickly realize that I am not physically there to stop them. My guess would be the latter.
     
  13. Elana P

    Elana P Active Member


    Chuckle chuckle snort....

    Hiraeth, just asked for the 1-2-3's of dog training, lol.
     
  14. Boxergirl

    Boxergirl Well-Known Member

    And why did she ask for them? Certainly not because she needs you to tell her how. She asked for the same reason I asked for elaboration.

    "Maybe you'd actually help someone who is reading this thread and has a destructive dog and could use your advice."
     
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  15. Elana P

    Elana P Active Member

     
  16. Nik

    Nik Well-Known Member

    Exactly. Helpful tips is always the point and should be the end goal of any controversial thread. I have been non-stop training my dogs and if someone has some new trick or tip or bit of advice that helps with my training I am always eager to hear it. As much as we try to educate ourselves there is always something new to learn. Vague assertions to train your dog aren't particularly helpful in a forum like this since most of us agree with the idea of training and take it very seriously unless of course we are talking to a newbie who is getting their first dog and doesn't realize the importance of training in which case telling them to do training may be helpful. :)
     
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  17. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    again I have no problem setting a dog up to correct it , how else do you know ??? beating has nothing to do with corrections or training ? you say correcting your dog would break your heart , along with saying yes or good is more fulfilling to you , well that explains a lot ...you've obviously never seen dogs raise dogs or inter-dog relationships , or paid attention if you did , corrections are a big part of their life , they take them without a second thought , as mine do from me........... when a dog knows the meaning of no and respects it , life is on it's way to easy ...........you figure out how to get their attention and dogs are way smart , and understanding , even of corrections ................. I learned a long time ago that a correction overdone is a waste ...fair and consistent corrections along with fair and consistent rewards makes things more easily clear to a dog , and in no way makes for a neurotic or timid dog , you folks talk about not using tools , a crate is nowhere near the tool a correction is , I've raised 60-70 dogs without a crate , I sure wouldn't want to attempt it without corrections ......... confusion leads to a neurotic or timid dogs ..........clarity and understanding leads to trust , it's been my experience trust leads to a bold , inquisitive , outgoing dogs that will do whatever you ask ............ fair and consistent corrections in no way harms trust , I have seen that fact as long as I've had dogs ........ i'm sitting here eating a steak with 3 kennel raised dogs rolling around the floor fighting , one was just sitting within a foot of my steak smelling the air, she's never been taught to not take my stuff , never been taught manners as far as me eating , been 12hrs since she ate ,she's never not hungry , and taking my steak is not even a thought to her , she's just hoping I give her a piece , if I lay on the floor they'll fight for my attention , and to see who can get the closest , they'll do you whatever i ask without fear because they trust me , I don't confuse them at all ........
     
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  18. marke

    marke Well-Known Member

    what is your thought on an electric fences as far as keeping a dog safe ?
     
  19. Elana P

    Elana P Active Member


    @Boxergirl

    Ok, let me get this straight.....

    @Hiraeth, asked, because she doesn't want to know. She asked because she doesn't need advice. She asked, because she doesn't need me to tell her.....

    Yet she's the one with a dog who is eating her house, and she doesn't seem to know how to stop him from doing it.

    Oh ye gods have mercy and give me patience.


    @marke, gave her advice, gave her answers (which she doesn't want or need), but she doesn't want to try anything different, because she wants to do it her way, and her way alone, because her way is the right way, and no one else knows what they're talking about.

    ONLY ONE PROBLEM WITH THAT, HER WAY IS OBVIOUSLY NOT WORKING!!!!!! THE DOGGY STILL NEEDS TO BE CRATED ALL DAY, BECAUSE HE EATS HER HOUSE!!!!!

    Nothing I say or don't say, is going to make a difference one way or the other.

    Let's just consider this hypothetical scenerio for a moment.....

    There are approximately 261 working days in a given year ( not calculating holidays, etc.) So let's say, that your dog is crated only 8 hours per day.
    261 × 8 = 2,088 hours per year, which works out to 87 days (24 hour periods) out of the year spent in a crate.

    If you take that a step further, and consider an average life span for a giant breed dog. Let's just say 10 years more or less.

    If your dog lives to be 10 years old, it would translate into 2,088 × 10 = 2,0880 hours, which translates into 2.384 years spent in a crate.

    Which, correct me if I'm wrong (I was never good at math, lol), is close to 24% of this dog's life, spent in a crate.

    That's all I'm going to say on the subject of crating, end of story.

    Terminatum est......

    Pax
     
  20. Boxergirl

    Boxergirl Well-Known Member

    Why are you yelling?

    We all asked for specifics because we were hoping someone would give suggestions besides crating that would be of help to any lurkers reading. You know, so others could learn from a good discussion. I didn't see anyone asking for advice on this thread.
     

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