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A Very Controversial Topic....

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
I am of the opinion that if you are gone so much that your dog has to be crated every single day during a work day then you shouldn't have a dog.

I *really* can't stand blanket statements like this.

So because I work a 40 hour week and I own a dog who will eat couches and drywall, I shouldn't own him? I should rehome my 165 lb reactive dog to someone who miraculously has the experience to train him and can afford $200 a month in food and insurance payments while never leaving their home?

I mean, come on. Either say something meaningful or don't say anything at all. Biased and inaccurate generalizations help no one here.
 

scorning

Well-Known Member
I am also someone who works and crates my dogs when I'm at work (54" crates with fleece pads and either pb kongs or raw bones to keep them busy). I do take them to work with me one day a week (where they are also crated) and work from home one day a week. When they are left at home I have a dog walker come mid-day. My Great Dane is actually fine not being crated, but the Doberman I just got last month still needs it as she is destructive and she gets anxious if she is crated and he isn't. I think she will out grow this and I can eventually leave them out in secure area, but I'm not in a rush to do this. I have a furbo camera on their crates, and I can see that they just sleep most of the day. My dogs both sleep with me, so no crates at night. I also leave them loose in the secure room if I am going on short trips, pretty much anything less than 2 hours. As a side note, pretty much every reputable breeder I've talked to in both my breeds has either required or strongly recommended crate training.
 

Elana P

Well-Known Member
Interesting comments from everyone.

Do you folks realize that many people in Europe, find it quite amusing that folks this side of the Atlantic keep their dogs in small cages. In fact, I know of at least one country, where it is illegal to keep a dog in a cage o_O and there maybe others as well.

It would be interesting to research, where and when the idea of keeping dogs in cages originated.....
 

kingmark

Well-Known Member
Interesting comments from everyone.

Do you folks realize that many people in Europe, find it quite amusing that folks this side of the Atlantic keep their dogs in small cages. In fact, I know of at least one country, where it is illegal to keep a dog in a cage o_O and there maybe others as well.

It would be interesting to research, where and when the idea of keeping dogs in cages originated.....
You see i have never thought about that, not even when i commented on this thread ,but now when i think about it its really like that. I know many people who have dogs in the flats and small houses and they were never crated not even in a dream and they are just fine ,and all their owners have to work . Also i know many people who know people who have dogs from small to large breeds and non of them are crated nor did anyone ever thought about that and all their dogs are fine, so what is up with that? European mentallity? :)
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
Interesting comments from everyone.

Do you folks realize that many people in Europe, find it quite amusing that folks this side of the Atlantic keep their dogs in small cages. In fact, I know of at least one country, where it is illegal to keep a dog in a cage o_O and there maybe others as well.

It would be interesting to research, where and when the idea of keeping dogs in cages originated.....

I do realize that many people in Europe have different views on crating. Your bias is showing through again, and in quite an ugly and judgmental way. Referring to them as 'cages' makes it seem like dogs are prisoners within tiny little barred cells.

My crate is bigger than the rooms many people lock their dogs in (12'L x 4'H x 4'W). And my dogs often VOLUNTARILY choose to lay in there when I leave the door open.

What would someone in Europe do with a 165 lb dog who will eat through drywall, I wonder? Just let it destroy their home? Make it live outside? Euthanize the dog? Rehome to someone who is home 24/7 who can somehow afford the food and medical bills required for a dog that size?
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Small cages?? Hahaha. I'm sorry, but that's funny. I have the same size crate as Hiraeth does. People are astounded at how much room it takes up. Ella loves it. If I took it down she would miss it very much. My boys have airline crates, XL, with the doors removed. Certainly not small cages. Your original and dramatic (I'm sorry, but I do think it was rather dramatic) example is something that I've rarely seen happen. People that would do that would find a way to abuse their dogs whether they used a crate or not. I did foster dogs that had been crated inappropriately. They had also been neglected in other ways. I continued to use a crate as part of their rehabilitation. Properly used, they learned that the crate was their safe place and would seek it out on their own. I can't see that as a bad thing. Some people might say that *not* crating your puppy when you can't supervise it is negligent because it puts them in danger. I do actually think that crating a puppy that can't be supervised is safer, however I am not judging those that choose not to crate. My way doesn't have to be your way.
 

Elana P

Well-Known Member
I do realize that many people in Europe have different views on crating. Your bias is showing through again, and in quite an ugly and judgmental way. Referring to them as 'cages' makes it seem like dogs are prisoners within tiny little barred cells.

My crate is bigger than the rooms many people lock their dogs in (12'L x 4'H x 4'W). And my dogs often VOLUNTARILY choose to lay in there when I leave the door open.

What would someone in Europe do with a 165 lb dog who will eat through drywall, I wonder? Just let it destroy their home? Make it live outside? Euthanize the dog? Rehome to someone who is home 24/7 who can somehow afford the food and medical bills required for a dog that size?
 

Elana P

Well-Known Member
Cage....crate.....box...... just arguing symantics???
Calling my voicing other people's opinions "ugly and judgmental", and calling me "biased", is not judgmental at all, is it..... o_O

Was my description of many a dog's life "dramatic"?
If you mean dramatic in the sense that it's sad, then yes, it is sad....

Just a random question to whomever:
How many hours per a 24 hour period are your dogs in a "crate", with the door locked?
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Cage....crate.....box...... just arguing symantics???
Calling my voicing other people's opinions "ugly and judgmental", and calling me "biased", is not judgmental at all, is it..... o_O

Was my description of many a dog's life "dramatic"?
If you mean dramatic in the sense that it's sad, then yes, it is sad....

Just a random question to whomever:
How many hours per a 24 hour period are your dogs in a "crate", with the door locked?


I'm saying that your suggestion that many a dog's life is spent locked in a crate for hours on end without any interaction was dramatic. If you don't utilize crates often where you live, I'm wondering how you came to that conclusion?

I can't tell you how long my dogs were locked in a crate. I was able to be home with my puppies, so I crated them with the door closed when I was unable to give them undivided attention. I can tell you that at 7 years, 5 years, and 4 years each of my dogs chooses to spend at least four or five hours of the day sleeping in their crates. Often more. I have a camera in my house and I can see and hear exactly what they are doing at any given time. Various foster dogs did have to spend several hours in a crate at a time. The training that they received, part of which was crate training to teach them new behaviors that *not* having been supervised encouraged, allowed them to be placed in permanent homes where they lived out their lives happily. I'd say a few hours of crate time was a good trade off.

We are going through some issues with my daughter's new puppy. His breeder was injured shortly after the litter was born. He had many people come in and out of the house, so the pups have been well socialized. He was not, however, able to leave the house so the puppies were never alone. Ever. We have a very confident young puppy in most ways, but his separation anxiety is severe. For the first four days he completely freaked out if we walked to the other room, two inches away, and he couldn't reach us through the gate. He got his head stuck through the bars somehow, so extreme was his panic. I have exhausted myself working with him to make the crate a safe place. A place that he chooses to go into for food, naps, and all good things. We haven't closed the door yet. I'm working up to that. Because it's unsafe for him to have free run of the house in a panic. The US does not have that many dog friendly places. Our lives are on hold until this puppy can learn to be alone. I am confident that a crate will end up being his safe place. I don't see any stress in this puppy. He chose to enter the crate both times on his own. He chose to nap in there. And he allows me to leave the room now. I'd call that a step in the right direction.

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Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
Cage....crate.....box...... just arguing symantics???
Calling my voicing other people's opinions "ugly and judgmental", and calling me "biased", is not judgmental at all, is it..... o_O

Was my description of many a dog's life "dramatic"?
If you mean dramatic in the sense that it's sad, then yes, it is sad....

Just a random question to whomever:
How many hours per a 24 hour period are your dogs in a "crate", with the door locked?

No, we're not arguing semantics at all. I mean, if you *really* want to argue semantics, I could call your HOUSE a cage. It has four walls and a door that's locked and prevents your dog from going very far, right? Your dog is stuck there all day without you, right? Now that's semantics.

I think your idea of "many a dog's life" is highly melodramatic. First of all, if you don't crate where you live, how do you know that dog's lives are actually like that? From what you read online? In the media? Because those are the worst examples of dog ownership, and that's what you're comparing us (people who crate) to. Which is inaccurate and insulting.

I'd like you to answer my question first - what would you do with a 165 lb dog who eats drywall? Unless you're avoiding answering that because you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about or no solutions to that situation that fit your agenda.

Edited to add: I know someone who recently lost a 12 week old Great Dane puppy because they refused to crate and their dog ended up eating a sock, which obstructed its intestines and the dog died on the operating table two days later. Sorry to say, but I think it's far more cruel to risk that type of long, drawn out death, than it is to crate dogs who are destructive chewers or who will swallow dangerous objects.
 

kingmark

Well-Known Member
No, we're not arguing semantics at all. I mean, if you *really* want to argue semantics, I could call your HOUSE a cage. It has four walls and a door that's locked and prevents your dog from going very far, right? Your dog is stuck there all day without you, right? Now that's semantics.

I think your idea of "many a dog's life" is highly melodramatic. First of all, if you don't crate where you live, how do you know that dog's lives are actually like that? From what you read online? In the media? Because those are the worst examples of dog ownership, and that's what you're comparing us (people who crate) to. Which is inaccurate and insulting.

I'd like you to answer my question first - what would you do with a 165 lb dog who eats drywall? Unless you're avoiding answering that because you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about or no solutions to that situation that fit your agenda.

Edited to add: I know someone who recently lost a 12 week old Great Dane puppy because they refused to crate and their dog ended up eating a sock, which obstructed its intestines and the dog died on the operating table two days later. Sorry to say, but I think it's far more cruel to risk that type of long, drawn out death, than it is to crate dogs who are destructive chewers or who will swallow dangerous objects.
Hey take it easy we are all on the same side just with different opinions. I see all your points and understand them and respect them , but having your dog eat drywall has nothing to do with who doesnt want to crate his dog. I had a 65 kg boerboel who stayed home alone few times for few ours because of some emergency things and he didnt do a single scratch in the home. And all other time he was constantly with humans and never did any damage to the house. Belive me he tryed on the walls chairs carpet and he knew word no and there were no problems. He also got to eat a sock when he was little wich he stole from my grandmother who didnt see that, he pooped her with no problems and forgot that ever happend. I am very proud that i really had perfect dog a perfect friend who left me so early that i will never recover from that :( celebrate every second you spend with your best friends as if it last because you never now when will they go :(
 

Nik

Well-Known Member
Interesting comments from everyone.

Do you folks realize that many people in Europe, find it quite amusing that folks this side of the Atlantic keep their dogs in small cages. In fact, I know of at least one country, where it is illegal to keep a dog in a cage o_O and there maybe others as well.

It would be interesting to research, where and when the idea of keeping dogs in cages originated.....

I am pretty sure that "small cage" wouldn't be accurate for most members of this forum. I purchased the largest crate available for our's. Sometimes when Diesel is relaxing in his crate he gets jealous of Kahlua cuddling me so I will split time and lay down with him in his crate. It is plenty large enough for me to sprawl out along side him without an issue. Granted I'm on the shorter side at 5 feet but still it is hardly a small cage.
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
Hey take it easy we are all on the same side just with different opinions. I see all your points and understand them and respect them , but having your dog eat drywall has nothing to do with who doesnt want to crate his dog.

But it does. I'm being backhandedly lambasted and called a cruel dog owner (as is everyone else who uses a crate in a proper manner) because I crate my dog who eats drywall.

So my question is entirely legitimate - what would you do with a dog who was capable of eating through a wall within minutes if left uncrated and unsupervised? I seriously want an answer from people who are anti-crate on that one, and I have yet to get it. Answers could include - get rid of the dog, euthanize the dog, allow the dog to destroy the house, allow the dog to eat questionable materials and risk obstruction surgeries and death, leave the dog outside all day (where it will likely eat your siding instead of your drywall)... Which route would an anti-crater choose that's somehow better than crating a dog in a play pen that's larger than most people's bathrooms?

I have a full time job (in order to pay for my dog's food, toys, bones and health insurance, which total over $500 a month), and cannot be there to redirect every time Zephyr decides a wall looks super tasty.
 

MastiffMillie

Well-Known Member
I too work full time and as I said before, I crate Millie but pay for her to have a break and a lovely walk. I also work to be able to afford to have our dog and care for her well. My intention is that she won't be crated as soon as possible and we will still have our sitter visit and walk her. If she is destructive then we will have to think, like you hiraeth.

However, that said, I also agree that everyone has their own views and all dogs, and owners, are different. We all care about our dogs and are good responsible owners, otherwise we wouldn't have found ourselves on this site seeking help and advice from other good, responsible owners.

I don't mind if people don't agree with me crating my dog as I know that Millie is a happy pup who spends every minute that we are home out and with us, being part of the family.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Daisy2015

Active Member
I am fortunate that I can take Daisy to work with me three days a week. We do however have a crate in which Daisy sleeps at night. When she is alone at home Daisy has access to our fully fenced back yard and the part of the house where the crate is situated and she will often put herself back in the crate. I think it gives her a feeling of comfort and security when she is home alone so the crate definitely works well for us.
 

Nik

Well-Known Member
Hiraeth - It is a very valid question. And some of those options aren't options for some of us. Outside without us home will never be an option for Kahlua. She can climb and jump to high and she will always manage to find something to chew up and eat that she shouldn't. Her eating everything habit terrifies me. Obstruction is a real threat so unless I can watch her she can't be free. She is better sleeping in her large comfy crate than eating something and having a medical emergency that may end tragically. She loves me working from home while I am sick because she hasn't been crated hardly at all (once when I had to go get medications at the doctor) and during her meal times and that is it. I don't think there is anything cruel about putting your dog's safety first when it is necessary. Diesel isn't crated because he isn't an "eater". Cerberus wasn't even confined to one particular room because he didn't cause any destruction, try to escape or eat bad stuff. Each dog is different. Maybe the anti-crater sorts have never had a dog where it was a real issue. I know Kahlua is my first "eater of everything" and Diesel is my first "I will go through a window if there is an intruder" dog.
 

kingmark

Well-Known Member
Hiraeth - It is a very valid question. And some of those options aren't options for some of us. Outside without us home will never be an option for Kahlua. She can climb and jump to high and she will always manage to find something to chew up and eat that she shouldn't. Her eating everything habit terrifies me. Obstruction is a real threat so unless I can watch her she can't be free. She is better sleeping in her large comfy crate than eating something and having a medical emergency that may end tragically. She loves me working from home while I am sick because she hasn't been crated hardly at all (once when I had to go get medications at the doctor) and during her meal times and that is it. I don't think there is anything cruel about putting your dog's safety first when it is necessary. Diesel isn't crated because he isn't an "eater". Cerberus wasn't even confined to one particular room because he didn't cause any destruction, try to escape or eat bad stuff. Each dog is different. Maybe the anti-crater sorts have never had a dog where it was a real issue. I know Kahlua is my first "eater of everything" and Diesel is my first "I will go through a window if there is an intruder" dog.
Anti crater sorts? Omg where did you come up with that word? Wasnt dogs childhod the time when you teach him what is ok what not?
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Anti crater sorts? Omg where did you come up with that word? Wasnt dogs childhod the time when you teach him what is ok what not?

Anti crater sorts. I like it. Lol.

Puppyhood most definitely IS when you teach what is okay and not okay. That's what we crater sorts use a crate for if we have a dog that is putting itself in danger by eating inappropriate things, etc. It's a teaching tool and a safe place. Definitely preferable to blockages, injuries, and destruction.

Kingmark, can you answer Hiraeth's question? What would you do if you had a dog like she described? I'm truly curious to hear what the anti crater sorts would do in that situation.
 

kingmark

Well-Known Member
Anti crater sorts. I like it. Lol.

Puppyhood most definitely IS when you teach what is okay and not okay. That's what we crater sorts use a crate for if we have a dog that is putting itself in danger by eating inappropriate things, etc. It's a teaching tool and a safe place. Definitely preferable to blockages, injuries, and destruction.

Kingmark, can you answer Hiraeth's question? What would you do if you had a dog like she described? I'm truly curious to hear what the anti crater sorts would do in that situation.
Answer. I would teach him when he was a puppy that eating walls is not ok nor fun, also i would have done it without crate as i did with all my dogs.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Answer. I would teach him when he was a puppy that eating walls is not ok nor fun, also i would have done it without crate as i did with all my dogs.

How would you do that if you had to work a full day and had nobody to watch your destructive puppy? Would your dog have free run of the house? Would you put him in a safe room? I'm asking a serious question and I really would like to hear an expansive answer. If you have a dog that is destructive, that can't be taught away in one day.