A Very Controversial Topic....

[fila4me]

Forgot to add...
I have very dominant females, the smallest being 20lbs, I choose to not chance a fight or possible death when I am not home. My girls are fed in their crates and bones are only allowed in their crates. Back when I had multiple intact male and female Dogos and Filas, not crating when unsupervised would have been asinine.

 

[Elana P]

The way those dogs were panicking was avoidable. If the owners had taught their dog that being in a crate was something safe and they could relax and wait calmly when inside, chances are the stress those dogs were under would be greatly reduced. I do know not all dogs can be safely crated but I also believe that many that freak out it's because the owners never taught them that crates can be good.
In my opinion owners have the responsibility to do everything they can to reduce the stress that human life can possibily place on another species. The unfortunate possibility is that any dog may have an emergency or an illness that requires a vet stay, which in most cases requires being crated. Why should a dog be forced to endure the added stress of an unknown confinement along with the stress of an unusual enviroment and people when it can be avoided by taking the time to train that a crate can be good.
I have no doubt that those who don't crate train also feel that what they are doing is the best for their dog but after seeing those dogs panicking and knowing how simple it was for me to prevent that stress in my dogs I do see it as a failure.
I accept that there are those who will never crate train for whatever reason and all I can do there is hope that those dogs never need to be confined or accept crating naturally as the alternative is heartwrenching to witness.

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Have you considered the possibility, that the dog you described seeing at the Vet's office, would have been stressed and panicked and terrified had he been crate trained or not ?

There are many animals who will feel stressed and panicked when going into the Vet's office, and it has absolutely nothing to do with crate training.

It does have a lot to do with being in a strange environment, with strangers, and being poked and prodded, at times abandoned for a period of time, and in many cases being in pain and not understanding why.

I was surprised to read, that you have never come across dogs who are crated at night, then crated again during the day when their owners are at work .

 

[Elana P]

My daughter works at a busy emergency vet clinic. They all very much appreciate the dogs that are crate trained. Kingmark, if your dog were admitted to the hospital and required a stay, she would be crated for her own safety and you would not be allowed to stay in the back with her. There are other dogs in critical condition and the area where the animals are kept is not the place for an owner. If you refused to allow her to be crated, they would be forced to tell you that she couldn't stay as they are much too busy saving lives to watch an uncrated dog or have an owner under foot.

 

[Boxergirl]

Have you considered the possibility, that the dog you described seeing at the Vet's office, would have been stressed and panicked and terrified had he been crate trained or not ?

There are many animals who will feel stressed and panicked when going into the Vet's office, and it has absolutely nothing to do with crate training.
.

You're right that many animals feels stressed at the vet's office, but I honestly believe the majority of the dogs that have such a hard time being kenneled are the ones that were never crate trained. Just a little work when they're young can make things like mandatory crating for recovery much easier on the dog. There are times when crate rest is mandatory.

As far as stress goes, my daughter did her externship at a fear free/low stress handling clinic. She's certified in fear free and low stress techniques. It is possible to have an enjoyable visit for almost every dog, if the staff is properly trained in certain techniques. Restraining the animals for exams, vaccines, blood draws, and nail trims was seldom necessary. It was pretty awesome.

 

[Elana P]

@Boxergirl and @kingmark

I have spent a lot of time in the back rooms of a Vet's office over the years.

I have seen dogs who were crate trained panic and scream in distress when left there by their owners, and I have seen dogs who were never crated, who settled calmly into a cage in the back, when reasured by their owner.

Many animals will panic and cry when they come out of anesthesia, some will heave, urinate or defecate. Some will howl, snarl and even lash out and bite (when they have never bitten before).

Honestly, I think being used to being crated, has nothing to do with any of this.

 

[Smokeycat]

Have you considered the possibility, that the dog you described seeing at the Vet's office, would have been stressed and panicked and terrified had he been crate trained or not ?

There are many animals who will feel stressed and panicked when going into the Vet's office, and it has absolutely nothing to do with crate training.

It does have a lot to do with being in a strange environment, with strangers, and being poked and prodded, at times abandoned for a period of time, and in many cases being in pain and not understanding why.

I was surprised to read, that you have never come across dogs who are crated at night, then crated again during the day when their owners are at work .

Yes I did consider that the dog's (it was a different dog each time) reaction was because of more than just being crated. It is why I said the stress could be reduced not eliminated by crate training.
As for knowing people that have or do crate during the night and during the day at work yes I do, I'm one of them, but that's not what your initial post described. That post read (to me) as a situation where the dog was 'free' for only a few minutes each day. What you describe here is different. In this scenario the majority of the dogs waking hours are loose amongst the family. I know that with mine at least 90% of the time they were in the crate they were asleep, it made for very boring watching.
Is it an ideal situation, no but it was the correct solution for us.

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[Boxergirl]

I don't think behavior when coming out of anesthesia has anything at all to do with whether a dog is crate trained or not. As for me, I will continue to introduce my pups to a crate on the off chance that it may make things easier for them if they ever do have to be kenneled. It's what works for me.

 

[kingmark]

@Boxergirl and @kingmark

I have spent a lot of time in the back rooms of a Vet's office over the years.

I have seen dogs who were crate trained panic and scream in distress when left there by their owners, and I have seen dogs who were never crated, who settled calmly into a cage in the back, when reasured by their owner.

Many animals will panic and cry when they come out of anesthesia, some will heave, urinate or defecate. Some will howl, snarl and even lash out and bite (when they have never bitten before).

Honestly, I think being used to being crated, has nothing to do with any of this.

Exactly that is also my opinion. I also cant imagine that my dog is left alone when waking up from anesthesia, my male r.i.p had a surgery of his broken nail last year. He had to be druged to get that operation done, i couldnt be in the operation room with him but i was outside the door waiting him , when they got him done he was still a sleep, so we put him in one room and i tucked myself close to him waiting for him to wake up and to see me and hear me the first. He was howling crying couldnt get normally on his feet, he shit like never before pee as i was strugling with him so he doesnt hurt him self and watching his poop and pee go wild. Whole room was full of blood ,poop,pee as his wound started to bleed. I was to elbows in that mess as the vet didnt hear what was going on from the first So i cant imagine that if he was in crate he would definetly hurt himself because he was always trying to stand up and not to mentions loads of poop and pee on him as he had no control holding it and not to mention seeing that i am not there it could become dangerous for him and vets. I am very proud how i took care of him and that situation and it was my first one like that and hoping the last one.

 

[Boxergirl]

I know that my daughter and her co-workers keep a very careful eye on the animals coming out of anesthesia. If possible they sit with them when they see signs they are waking up. Sometimes, however, that just isn't possible in an emergency clinic - like when two hit by cars come in at the same time. If your vet or the technicians didn't hear that your dog was in distress then shame on them. They didn't do their job very well. But that still really doesn't have anything to do with whether the dog is accustomed to being crated. And again, there are just some situations that the owner can't and shouldn't be in the treatment area. Just like hospitals limit access to patients in critical condition, so do veterinary hospitals. If I can't trust my veterinary professional and his/her team to take care of my animals then I'd be looking elsewhere for their care.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Mine are all crate trained and are in there when I go to work. I have intact dogs (have a breeding program) so while it would be nice to have them all out I run the risk of becoming a puppy mill fast. I also have dogs that can't be out together, they do not get along... it can come to those that have more than one dog of a strong will nature that is a benefit to their program but can pose challenges in a house type setting. We have runs outside that they dogs are able to into while we are home (I do not trust leaving them out unattended when not home as we have too many people in our rural neighbourhood and some questionable kids) as well as a fenced yard that they are able to run in. While crate training doesn't work for everyone I do agree that your dog should be comfortable in one should something ever happen to you that your dog needs to be in it. There is nothing worse than working at a clinic and having animals in the back that are not used to crates screaming and in a panic because they can't get out. Being at a clinic is stressful enough as it is.

 

[kingmark]

I know that my daughter and her co-workers keep a very careful eye on the animals coming out of anesthesia. If possible they sit with them when they see signs they are waking up. Sometimes, however, that just isn't possible in an emergency clinic - like when two hit by cars come in at the same time. If your vet or the technicians didn't hear that your dog was in distress then shame on them. They didn't do their job very well. But that still really doesn't have anything to do with whether the dog is accustomed to being crated. And again, there are just some situations that the owner can't and shouldn't be in the treatment area. Just like hospitals limit access to patients in critical condition, so do veterinary hospitals. If I can't trust my veterinary professional and his/her team to take care of my animals then I'd be looking elsewhere for their care.

I know the vets werent in that kind of fault as it sounds, but i wanted to say that if he was in crate he would definitly hurt him self and get in very big mess with his poop and pee as if he was used to crate he wanted to stand up in full every half minute it was so fast that it would be very hard to control that as he was 70 cm and 65 kg .I didnt know what to expect from him woking up and i know there are many kind of injuries when dogs must go in crate, but i wouldnt let that happen as i think there are ways to try to avoid that unless my dog is half dead and isnt aware of what is happening. For who ever crate does work or think it does work its up to them i wouldnt judge them its their dogs not mine but i just said that i wouldnt put my dog in crate or even training them with crate. Maybe we went little off topic i appologise for that.

 

[lexinrose]

Life before the crate. My girl has separation anxiety and no patience.

Life with cage peaceful and safe

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[maryl]

I never understood why people were so against the appropriate use of a crate. These same people would never question using a crib or a playpen for their infant or toddler to keep them safe when they couldn't be supervised. That's what a crate is supposed to be used for, to keep them safe.

 

[DennasMom]

Crates are amazing tools, and when used properly are peaceful and safe.

All our dogs have been confined to the crate for bed time and when home alone as puppies - it really speeds up potty-training and gives them a safe space to call their own.
They also all have "graduated" from the crate and enjoy full roaming rights to the house as adults... but at varying ages, depending on each individual's rate of maturity.

Our first dog LOVED his crate. It was right next to the bed, and he slept in it every night, voluntarily (we removed the door when he was about 5 months old). When he reached about 1 yr of age, he didn't really fit in it, but he'd curl up and hang his head out to sleep.

Our next dog graduated from the crate when he was about 6 months old and never looked back (we replaced the crate with a big bed from Costco, where he slept every night).

Denna was allowed out of the "small" bedroom crate (when home alone) when she was 6 months old... but started destroying pillows... for her safety and our sanity, we bought a "condo" crate (54" wire), and that was her home for another year (only when home alone) - after which she has been an angel... and the crate was folded up and put in storage. I didn't like having to lock her up any more than she wanted to be in there, but I also didn't want to come home to a dog that had consumed something that would kill her.

Crates are great tools! As Maryl says, it keeps the object of our affection safe!
If you can do all that - potty training, remaining safe AND sane during puppy-dom, etc. without using a crate... more power to you!

 

[PippatheMastiff]

Yes, Pippa liked her crate also and when I noticed she lost interest in it, she preferred my bed, I removed it. She used it to nap in with door open, she went there when she was timid about something (up to age 6 months). And I put her in when I had to be away for work (half days) or shopping, whatever. I really don't have a life (my choice) so being home with her most of the time made a huge difference on her behavior. Plus she's a really good girl, seeks to please me. The new pup coming end of next month might have a different idea, so yes I will crate train him. Each is different, I'm not expecting such an easy time, just hoping!


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[Rugers-Kris]

Here is the thing: Each person and dog is different.

I am of the opinion that if you are gone so much that your dog has to be crated every single day during a work day then you shouldn't have a dog.

I also have never crate trained my dogs and I assure you that I have NOT failed them in anyway whatsoever!

It's a personal choice and shouldn't be judged either way.


I have healthy, happy, well adjusted, obedient dogs who love me but most importantly they TRUST me so if I needed them to do anything at all (whether they were trained to or not) they will because they TRUST me.

 

[Boxergirl]

I think the "failed their dog" statement is being taken way out of context. If you have a dog that is able to accept crating in an emergency situation without causing them stress then that statement doesn't apply to you. If you have a dog that would freak out, and I believe each of us knows our dogs well enough to know the answer here, then if you chose not to try to at least do minimal training to help the dog if they were to have to be crated then you've done your dog a disservice. I happen to have a boy that couldn't be crated. He loves his crate and willingly takes naps there, but if the door was closed he would hurt himself. Seven years later and he can be crated, in an XL wire crate, for periods of time. I feel good about that because like I said, if he ended up at an emergency clinic he WOULD be crated and it would have terrified him and he would have had to be sedated.

Good to see you Rugers-Kris! Would love to see pics of the boys.

 

[Hector]

I am bringing in an abandoned gsd today that is highly dog reactive and fear aggressive. You bet I will be using a crate or an outside pen.

 

[Nik]

Like most things I really really think it depends on the individual dog. I have yet to find an instance in which one solution fits more than one of my dogs equally. Every dog I have ever had has had slightly different training and different living circumstances because they are all different. There is no one size fits all. There is no ultimate answer.

My dog Cerberus was absolutely never crated. I tried. I bought a crate when he was a puppy. He was claustrophobic to the extreme. He would hyperventilate and vomit. There was no way to conditioning or training that out. He got free roam of the house, walks and time to play outside. When I moved into a better neighborhood with a higher fence there were days I would let him stay out in the backyard all day if the temperature was moderate and nice. As a puppy the free roam method ended in a few accidents and several chewed up shoes. Eventually I was able to find a way to secure the shoes. He was very smart and industrious so it had to basically be behind a locked door. But, he never tried to escape and he never tried to eat or swallow anything dangerous (except for years later while staying with my parents which was a near death experience and a very expensive vet bill). Having free run of the house worked for Cerberus. It was safe enough for him and we were able to mitigate any damage and eventually he didn't cause damage at all.

With Diesel we started him off with baby gates keeping him in the kitchen. We had to gradually work up to taller and taller gates. But, it worked reasonably well. Diesel is not a run of the house dog. He is a dog that will try to escape if he thinks there is something outside he needs to defend from. He has broken a window once throwing himself against it (he wasn't hurt and neither was the creepy guy in 0ur yard). He is far more destructive than Cerberus. Cerberus limited himself to shoes. Diesel will chew up anything that captures his interest. Luckily, he doesn't try to eat things he shouldn't after chewing them up. So when I can't keep a close eye he lives in our kitchen. He does not get to stay outside when nobody is home because he won't calm down, is always on watch and if he senses a threat he will do everything he can to get to it. Not safe for him. We have a crate for him and sometimes we need to use it. When our yard guy comes over to work on the back yard he goes in the crate. Because he doesn't like the yard guy and it is the only thing that calms him down. When he is overly worked up and tired and we can tell he just won't stop and settle but needs to then he goes into the crate. His crate is the only place he ever truly "turns off". He doesn't feel like he needs to be on watch or playing or not missing out on something when he is in the crate. Sometimes he puts himself in his crate.

Kahlua is crated when we aren't around or can't keep a very close eye on her. She can climb her way out of any enclosure, she can jump over the height of my head and she doesn't distinguish between food and not. Anything she chews she will swallow. Plastic, fabric... anything. When I take advil she begs for me to give her some. She absolutely can't be trusted unsupervised anywhere because there is no surface too high. She can squeeze through the cat door in the dog gate. She knows how to open the door. She is an escape artist. If we are home and in the same room as her she is great with place commands and listening. At night she sleeps in bed with us. She prefers to be by our side whenever possible so if she is by our side she gets freedom. But, when we are both at work she has to be crated for her own safety. Because of our schedules she isn't typically crated longer than 3 hours at a time and she tends to sleep through it. If she ever grows out of trying to eat everything then we will re-evaluate whether she needs to be crated when we aren't around but for now it is about her safety.

 

[Bailey's Mom]

We got Bailey at 3 months, she and her 14 brothers and sisters all slept in a large crate (Mom had her own large crate...with 15 pups she needed a break.) When we brought her home, we also brought a large crate. Bailey slept in her crate every night for 2 months, but was uncrated when we were home (and I was home for two months.) I started leaving her out of her crate with me away for 15 minutes, 20 min, 30 min, etc., Every time I came in, I would refrain from acknowledging her until I had checked the house, once everything was A-OK, love and treats were lavished upon her. As she grew up, she grew out of her need for a crate and rarely went near it, eventually we took it down and donated it. It was a great tool, and she benefited from it, but it was never a place of fear and abuse.

I have always made my feelings about crate abuse known: if you have to lock your dog up all day, all night, it's abuse, it's inhumane. Quality of life is as important as life itself. Imagine yourself in solitary confinement, with one hour a day in the exercise yard. It would be an existence, but it wouldn't be a quality life. I wouldn't do that to someone I loved.

By the way, Bailey is a calm, patient, curious, loving, outgoing dog who settles at the vets without fuss, even when it requires being crated. A life of enrichment leaves her balanced and in control. Long days locked in a crate wouldn't have produced her calm nature.
I have much thanks to extend to the Mastiff Forum and it's members who were my best resource for negotiating the do's and don'ts of raising a well balanced dog, including REASONABLE guidelines for crate usage.