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10 month old out of control Mastiff

RangerRay

New Member
I am at my wit's end, I'm glad I found this forum for some help hopefully! I've had and raised rottweilers, german shepherds, and generally love big dogs. When my kids were little we had a boston terrier so they could help a little more and handle him a bit easier. Now that they are older, we decided we would get either another Rottie or an English Mastiff - we ultimately went for the Mastiff b/c "I wanted to a lazy lug of a dog." That was my first mistake. We picked up Ranger (10 months, intact) when he was 9 weeks old. Cute fuzzball, but from day one he has been the mouthiest, most stubborn dog I've ever owned. Definitely not a lazy lug. He's been to puppy obedience (6 weeks worth), socialized all through soccer season, been around other dogs. He has multiple daily walks, rooms and rooms full of chew toys and bones, and is still the most difficult dog I've owned.

My 11 year old son cannot walk him outside on his own - he can't control him. Inside, he can't sit on the couch to watch TV or anything else or the dog will just immediately go to him and either try to hump him or mess with him somehow. My daughter is 16 and can handle him better, but generally if we are all trying to sit down as a family he has to be crated b/c he does not have any manners. He has a prong collar that I have tried to use to "correct" with a leash when he behaves badly. We've watched hours and hours of Cesar and try to put out "calm energy" -- nothing is working!!!

My husband just came home from a month at the hospital from brain surgery. We had a great friend who kept him at her house (she has a house full of mastiffs) and agreed to temporarily keep him there for a while, but we ended up having to get him after a week, only because we discovered he could jump freakishly high for a mastiff. (He was jumping out of her half door, and trying to jump her fence!)

Any suggestions from seasoned mastiff owners? Will he grow out of this annoying, mouthy stubborn personality when he grows up a bit? Or after he's neutered? (Were planning on that around 18 months or so, but with all of this humping would it be better to do it at 12 mo?) All of my friend's mastiffs are big lugs (even the puppies)...I keep thinking, How did we end up with this crazy dog that's supposed to be a gentle giant?

Please help.....
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
I found NILF to be the best thing to work with a stubborn Mastiff. Nothing in life is free. He has to earn everything be it attention, food, walks, playtime, toys, etc. Also I found a quiet or deep voice seemed to get his attention better than my normal speaking voice.
I wouldn't expect him to out grow this behavior or for it to go away with neutering. He is at the right age for a surge in testosterone and while some of the behaviors might reduce without that hormone level he is learning these behaviors work for him. And learnt behaviors don't disappear with surgery.
I suggest looking up NILF if you don't know it and implement it immediately with all family members. It's not going to be easy for anyone but it does help.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
What additional training have you done besides the 6 weeks of puppy classes? What kind of training do you do at home?
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
You won't learn anything from watching Cesar Milan. Go to youtube and watch Solid K9 Dog Training. Instill rules, boundaries, structure. Take away all freedom and make him work for food, affection, free time. Hold him accountable for his actions.
 

TWW

Well-Known Member
you have gotten some good replies so far, I'd watch hectors videos he has suggested, Ceaser is nice and all for TV but crap for real use.

Your dog is a puppy, and has the energy of such and will for a while to come
And finally yes they can jump Mine will clear a 4ft hamper and land on the bed with easy, and that is 211lbs flying through the air.

Many EM get the wrap of couch potato dog and they are far from it. No there not collie level energy but they have a lot at that age.
Training never really stops with them, it takes a firm and gentle approach.

Best wishes with your pup.
 

Vantage

Well-Known Member
That is one of my huge pet-pieves..... Misinformed owners attempting to use advanced and questionable training methods - For one Cesar is a trained professional, and secondly (and maybe even more importantly) Cesar Millan's Show is NOT a Dog-Owner/Trainer -Training Show, it is an Entertainment Show about a Dog trainer.

Sounds like you have a few different problems to deal with. Most of them can be solved through obedience, pack-structure, and trust/relationship building.

Rooms and Rooms full of chew toys and bones is Not necessarily a good thing. You may want to consider keeping the toys away in a basket or cupboard, and bringing them out for Play-Time Sessions, and then putting them back away. The dog will be more intense/driven for the toy making it a more productive training tool.

Walks- Dog walks, you must teach leash reactivity and how to loose leash walk. Then ask yourself if your dog respects your 11 year old son, and if it is an ideal situation having a 11 year old walk a 100+LBS dog to alone.
Humping - Must be corrected when he is humping your son. Your son needs to give a Firm "No" and then turn away and act aloof. How old is the dog? Has he been neutered?
Manners - What have you taught the dog? It is up to You to lay the ground work.... No manners as in what? Eating food off your table? Jumping on guests? Being unruly? If you say a Command you MUST enforce it 100% of the time. If he's bothering you teach him a Place Command.
A tired dog is a good dog - They ARE big Lazy dogs, but they DO need Exercise to get all that built up stress and energy out.

Ps. Hopefully your family and yourself are doing well after the Surgery. And Good-Luck with the Puppy!
 
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Reactions: Nik

kingmark

Well-Known Member
I am at my wit's end, I'm glad I found this forum for some help hopefully! I've had and raised rottweilers, german shepherds, and generally love big dogs. When my kids were little we had a boston terrier so they could help a little more and handle him a bit easier. Now that they are older, we decided we would get either another Rottie or an English Mastiff - we ultimately went for the Mastiff b/c "I wanted to a lazy lug of a dog." That was my first mistake. We picked up Ranger (10 months, intact) when he was 9 weeks old. Cute fuzzball, but from day one he has been the mouthiest, most stubborn dog I've ever owned. Definitely not a lazy lug. He's been to puppy obedience (6 weeks worth), socialized all through soccer season, been around other dogs. He has multiple daily walks, rooms and rooms full of chew toys and bones, and is still the most difficult dog I've owned.

My 11 year old son cannot walk him outside on his own - he can't control him. Inside, he can't sit on the couch to watch TV or anything else or the dog will just immediately go to him and either try to hump him or mess with him somehow. My daughter is 16 and can handle him better, but generally if we are all trying to sit down as a family he has to be crated b/c he does not have any manners. He has a prong collar that I have tried to use to "correct" with a leash when he behaves badly. We've watched hours and hours of Cesar and try to put out "calm energy" -- nothing is working!!!

My husband just came home from a month at the hospital from brain surgery. We had a great friend who kept him at her house (she has a house full of mastiffs) and agreed to temporarily keep him there for a while, but we ended up having to get him after a week, only because we discovered he could jump freakishly high for a mastiff. (He was jumping out of her half door, and trying to jump her fence!)

Any suggestions from seasoned mastiff owners? Will he grow out of this annoying, mouthy stubborn personality when he grows up a bit? Or after he's neutered? (Were planning on that around 18 months or so, but with all of this humping would it be better to do it at 12 mo?) All of my friend's mastiffs are big lugs (even the puppies)...I keep thinking, How did we end up with this crazy dog that's supposed to be a gentle giant?

Please help.....
I think your pup will grow out most of issues if not all,but you have to set him strict boundries of what he can what he cant. I have 8 months old female boerboel and she was also full hands of work. I used to correct her 50 times a day for doing something bad or trying to do and i never gave up, be patient and repeat boundaries as much is needed and that goes for your all family. Also i would like to ad that watching Cesar Milan helped me a lot in many ways with my female now and with my two previous dominant dogs ,male boerboel and male rottweiler. So be patient with your boy and correct him even if it needs hundred times a day they are worth it :)
 

Vantage

Well-Known Member
Is it really necessary to need to correct 100 times a day? I won't be the first to say I am not a huge fan of having to correct a dog, but I can see the value of such when the correct circumstance arrives.

If you have to keep correcting over and over for the same unwanted behaviour, then you have to ask yourself if you are correct hard enough? Ed Frawley said ONE-Good-Firm-Hard-Correction is better than 100-Small-Nagging-Corrections. The dog should remember the first correction and not want to repeat the unwanted behaviour within minutes of being corrected or it was not hard enough. But the dog should bounce back from your correction.

If the dog shuts down, tucks his tail and cowers, acts afraid, will NOT take a treat or play with a toy after a "Correct" then you are moving more towards abuse, and are using unnecessary, excess force.

In my opinion, things like Barrel-Rolling your dog, or "Pinning" him down, should not be done on your average somewhat aggressive or dominant dog. That is simply not the way to show "You are the leader". I walk up to someone and say hey hows it going, lets get to know each other, talk over dinner, then pop the question do you love? OR I walk up to someone and pull out a gun and say Tell Me You Love ME! - The latter being the equivalent to barrel rolling or pinning your dog down.
 

kingmark

Well-Known Member
Is it really necessary to need to correct 100 times a day? I won't be the first to say I am not a huge fan of having to correct a dog, but I can see the value of such when the correct circumstance arrives.

If you have to keep correcting over and over for the same unwanted behaviour, then you have to ask yourself if you are correct hard enough? Ed Frawley said ONE-Good-Firm-Hard-Correction is better than 100-Small-Nagging-Corrections. The dog should remember the first correction and not want to repeat the unwanted behaviour within minutes of being corrected or it was not hard enough. But the dog should bounce back from your correction.

If the dog shuts down, tucks his tail and cowers, acts afraid, will NOT take a treat or play with a toy after a "Correct" then you are moving more towards abuse, and are using unnecessary, excess force.

In my opinion, things like Barrel-Rolling your dog, or "Pinning" him down, should not be done on your average somewhat aggressive or dominant dog. That is simply not the way to show "You are the leader". I walk up to someone and say hey hows it going, lets get to know each other, talk over dinner, then pop the question do you love? OR I walk up to someone and pull out a gun and say Tell Me You Love ME! - The latter being the equivalent to barrel rolling or pinning your dog down.
I dont now how did they act with dog when he was little pup ,i was saying my experience with my little girl as i did with my male before her and that was spend a lot of time with the dog and talk with him as much as you can. I aplied the same method for my late male and also with my female now. Yes i had to repeat literly 50 times a day and correct her and it didnt take long that she got it all out. Now she is 8 months old and nearly perfect, she knows her boundries and understands word no from the first time, even its been i while since i last time told her no for something because i dont have to any more. Regarding Cesar glad you mentioned as him pinning dog down its the only thing i didnt like in his methods. I never pinned down any of my dog and did they chalanged me a lot but i never did anything forceful to my dogs beside pushing them from me when he or she was in dominant mood and they were and are very dominant. My approach is a lot of patience and lot of nerves and of course a lot of talking and bonding time with your dog :)
 

marke

Well-Known Member
i'd mostly agree , but I think most corrections don't work because they're miss-timed and/or too hard ...... if the dog responds the correction was hard enough , if it doesn't work the dog didn't put it together ........ a hard correction will distract most dogs , they won't have a clue why they just got hurt , even though they don't want it to happen again they won't know how or why ........ if your sure the timing is good and the dog knows why he was corrected , escalate the severity a little at a time , I've not met many mastiffs that are mentally capable of taking a hard correction .......... as hector said , hold them accountable , and be completely consistent , that's a big deal
 

Vantage

Well-Known Member
Yeah you have to find what works for you right. Dogs are like kids and there is no one solid rule or way to do things. My post was not directed towards you, just sharing some thoughts I have learned and possibly some questions others may be able to answer or engage in.
Rule of 30, in general a dog must repeat a New exercise 30 times before learning it. Or 90 Times to Relearn a new exercise that he has been performing incorrectly.

Another great thing to work on is your Recall - One can never stop practicing a solid, fast recall... under high stress situations it can be a life saver!
 

TWW

Well-Known Member
That is one of my huge pet-pieves..... Misinformed owners attempting to use advanced and questionable training methods - For one Cesar is a trained professional, and secondly (and maybe even more importantly) Cesar Millan's Show is NOT a Dog-Owner/Trainer -Training Show, it is an Entertainment Show about a Dog trainer.

Sounds like you have a few different problems to deal with. Most of them can be solved through obedience, pack-structure, and trust/relationship building.

Rooms and Rooms full of chew toys and bones is Not necessarily a good thing. You may want to consider keeping the toys away in a basket or cupboard, and bringing them out for Play-Time Sessions, and then putting them back away. The dog will be more intense/driven for the toy making it a more productive training tool.

Walks- Dog walks, you must teach leash reactivity and how to loose leash walk. Then ask yourself if your dog respects your 11 year old son, and if it is an ideal situation having a 11 year old walk a 100+LBS dog to alone.
Humping - Must be corrected when he is humping your son. Your son needs to give a Firm "No" and then turn away and act aloof. How old is the dog? Has he been neutered?
Manners - What have you taught the dog? It is up to You to lay the ground work.... No manners as in what? Eating food off your table? Jumping on guests? Being unruly? If you say a Command you MUST enforce it 100% of the time. If he's bothering you teach him a Place Command.
A tired dog is a good dog - They ARE big Lazy dogs, but they DO need Exercise to get all that built up stress and energy out.

Ps. Hopefully your family and yourself are doing well after the Surgery. And Good-Luck with the Puppy!

Humping has zero to do with neutering and growth plates don't close till 18 to 24 months. Firm corrections when he does it, and making sure it is corrected every time, it what is needed. (Guessing it was not corrected or ignored at first thinking it was a phase, it is not it is a habit.)
In the post states is 10 months old.
 

RangerRay

New Member
Wow, thank you all for your replies. I do have an update...we picked him up from the wonderful "mastiff family" and he's doing okay. However she told me she has never seen a mastiff exhibit some of the characteristics and qualities that our boy had shown the week he was with them. He has endless energy and is so stubborn. She asked me about where I got him, and showed me a pic of an Anatolian Shepherd and said she thought he had some of that in him. This makes sense to me since he is not registered, and I have questions about the "breeder" where we got him. I've looked at pics of puppies and they look exactly alike. All the behavior traits I've read about Anatolians describe our boy perfectly. We traveled out of state to get him, and now looking back, I did not do my due diligence when picking him up. It was a very weird transaction. BUT, all of that being said, it's my fault for not asking enough or the right questions, and I'm determined to work with him.

Thank you for all of your suggestions. I will look into NILF and additional training for sure.
 

Nik

Well-Known Member
Wow, thank you all for your replies. I do have an update...we picked him up from the wonderful "mastiff family" and he's doing okay. However she told me she has never seen a mastiff exhibit some of the characteristics and qualities that our boy had shown the week he was with them. He has endless energy and is so stubborn. She asked me about where I got him, and showed me a pic of an Anatolian Shepherd and said she thought he had some of that in him. This makes sense to me since he is not registered, and I have questions about the "breeder" where we got him. I've looked at pics of puppies and they look exactly alike. All the behavior traits I've read about Anatolians describe our boy perfectly. We traveled out of state to get him, and now looking back, I did not do my due diligence when picking him up. It was a very weird transaction. BUT, all of that being said, it's my fault for not asking enough or the right questions, and I'm determined to work with him.

Thank you for all of your suggestions. I will look into NILF and additional training for sure.

NILF is a life saver. We use it with both of our dogs. There are some good videos on youtube about it. Just do a quick youtube search. Also if you are having mouthy or chewing inappropriate things issues see if bitter apple spray works for him. You can pick it up at most pet shops (like petsmart or petco).

All the advice above is really good so I don't have much to add other then to reinforce the importance of NILF with stubborn dogs. Our Diesel is only 1/2 mastiff (DDB to be specific) and we were told the other half is a pit mix (mix with what we have no clue) and his energy level is through the roof so I can understand the frustration with the lack of an off button. We started with NILF with him from a teeny puppy and it really has been the best thing for us. As to the humping we fixed Diesel at 18 months and although he only ever humped his bed it stopped almost instantly after neutering him. I should mention it recently started up again when our puppy Kahlua went into her first heat. We expect it will likely stop permanently once we fix her as well.
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
AH! Not a full Mastiff might help explain some of it... but... even full Mastiff puppies can exhibit crazy behavior.

We also went for an english mastiff in order to get a "couch potato"... and I was also surprised with how energetic our puppy was. She didn't slow down until well after her 2nd birthday. She's a great potato now, but still game for lots of long walks.

Denna had very few out-of-control moments as a puppy. A quick "motivational" correction, and she would leave that issue behind... or... maybe try it ONE more time... but that would be it.

What I learned from Cesar:
1. You get out of your dog what you put in - GOOD energy is a must, not necessarily just "calm"... you want it to be Calm AND Confident... if you go for just "calm" you might be too soft - especially if you're now dealing with a more "energetic" Anatolian mix.

2. If there's a confrontation (i.e. humping), don't let the dog "win"... just some firm pressure and/or a stare down should be good enough.... if not, use your 'angry Mom' voice, you know, the one kids are NOT allowed to ignore... it's not loud or hysterical, it's quiet and deadly. Stay with it until the dog sighs, relaxes and "gives up". Then ask the dog to do something you can reward him for (like a "sit" or go to "place" command)... and reward with a happy face and some love.

3. Corrections must be "Motivational" and also "Fair". Basically, the punishment must fit the crime. Small crimes get small corrections (normally something verbal with a redirection to an approved activity), big crimes get big corrections (i.e. no wiggle room, no room for doubt in the dog's eyes that doing THAT again would NOT be in their best interest). And corrections must follow the crime EVERY time. Suggesting this is dangerous territory, massive jerks on the prong collar are NOT what I'm suggesting. "Corrections" can be anything that works - for example, a "BIG" correction in the Mastiff world includes removing the puppy from the presence of their family. That is HUGE to a mastiff. Mastiffs are sensitive creatures. Shepherds... maybe not quite so much... but, still, if the dog knows he will be removed from the living room to sit alone in a crate due to jumping up on the couch, he will "eventually" stop jumping on the couch. You just have to make sure the connection between what the unapproved activity and the punishment is also very clear.

Another thought - consider the current corrections you're using - are they being considered a reward by the dog? because they dog gets your attention... if you think that might be what's going on here - that the dog starts acting up as soon as you sit down to relax - removing the dog to a crate for some alone time might be a very appropriate "correction" for those outbursts. When you bring the dog back out of the crate, be sure to let the dog knows what you WANT him to do in order to stay in the room with you (stay on "place", chew toy, etc.). I do 'recliner tug' as a game in the evenings... Denna brings me a rope or plush toy, so I can hold one end of it while she lays next to me pulling and chewing on the other end... we don't pull hard (or I'll let go)... but it's a little bit interactive, which is good enough for her.

I also follow a trainer who calls himself "The Amazing Dog Training Man"... he uses mostly positive methods, while still recommending your dog completely understand the word "NO".
One of his tips is that corrections are better when they do NOT come from the human... the come from "God" (or the "universe", if you will)

For jumping on people - keep a leash on the dog and step on it, with just enough slack that the dog doesn't feel it until he jumps - and the jump becomes self-correcting, or step INTO the dog when he jumps at/on you, and it pushes him off balance, so jumping becomes uncomfortable. REWARD for all-four-feet-on-ground.

Tie the dog to a piece of furniture in the living room, so he can relax on his own bed, but will correct himself if he goes to get up on the couch.

I teach "OFF" as being all-four-feet-on-ground. If you teach "UP" or "JUMP", then follow that with "OFF"... reward for jumping on command and staying off at all other times. To teach "UP" - I hold a treat tucked in my palm and have the dog jump up to grab the treat out of my hand - basically a "touch" command... hold the hand well away from the body, so at no point does the dog touch the human - other than nose to hand. If the dog jumps ON the human to get to the treat, "NO - OFF"... reward once all four feet are on the ground ("good off"). We instilled in our dogs that jumping might be OK (when overly excited)... as long as you Do Not Touch the human. That helps keep everyone safe.

I'd guess the humping is an expression of over-stimulation and excitement... a way to burn off more energy. Neutering probably won't do much to change it.
Corrections and redirecting to a more appropriate activity are your best bets.

And I also think removing ALL toys might be helpful - with then doling out one or two at a time. Puppies can experience ADHD type symptoms when they have too many choices. If you limit the choices of what to chew on to one thing at a time, that ONE thing will be their favorite (as it's the ONLY choice). :) If you rotate them every evening, then the puppy should be excited about the NEW TOY (even if it's the same as the one he chewed last week).

You might also look into Clicker-Training... it can be a great way to learn how to communicate with your dog. It helps with timing and focus with both the dog and the handler. And it can be fun and help drain energy all at the same time.

I'd also love to see a picture of your puppy. Keep us posted on how things go!

[disclaimer - all of the above are just suggestions on things to try, only you know what will really work for your unique puppy, hopefully something will help!]
 

RangerRay

New Member
Thanks again for the replies. Here are some pics. Sorry, I'm not very good with uploading pics the right side up! As a puppy up until now...Ranger.jpg IMG_4844.JPG IMG_4498.PNG IMG_3999.JPG
 

RangerRay

New Member
And to add to the pic post above, I can't help but feel cheated when I thought I was getting "full mastiff" but live and learn. And I'm determined to work with him. Since he's been home, he's definitely shown improvement. But man is he ever cautious of men. Women strangers are fine, but he is SO cautious with strange men. He doesn't ever lunge or even try to go after them, just very nervous and almost fearful. Lots of barking. The more I read about the Anatolians, this makes sense, as they are guard dogs by nature?
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
Your dog looks pretty mastiff-y. Guard dogs should not be fearful, nervous, reactive. Good guard dogs are stable, confident and act when necessary and when they act, they are not afraid of pressure (being hit, yelled at, intimidated). They will act to neutralize or take out a threat. Dogs with true guardian instincts are hard to come by. A lot of dogs will display a very scary display, but they are actually cowards and fear biters.

Basic obedience work around distractions with high level rewards should help him. Find some people and get together and do pack walks with controlled/non reactive dogs. Expose him around tons of people and that means like walking downtown in a heel or loose leash and help him disengage with triggers before he reacts. When you successfully re-engage him to you, reward hugely for his efforts. Don't let people pet him or give him treats or crowd him. Get a prong collar and learn about leash mechanics.