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Banning of training tools petition

Steven C

Well-Known Member
For those of you that want to see when he uses the choke in correcting the dog, at aprox 10 mins in. He uses it repeatedly as he uses people to approach the dog, each of which the dog wants to attack until it gets corrected.

@marke You and I use our dogs for totally different things. When I had a golden I use to bike ride with it and I never had to use any tools with my Bordeaux.

My Corso is another scenario completely as will be my Malinois. These tools are completely necessary for dogs other than backyard or bike riding. I take my Corso inches from loads of people every single night which requires occasional corrections. If you understand French, he said that the dog didn't like the smell of the 3rd guy approaching for this reason required at least 5 corrections and to be put in a down position. Without the choke or tools there is no way in hell he could have completed the task. So please don't invent reasons that have nothing to do with the video.

The dog was at this guys place of business because it was fearful aggressive. That is what this guy works with. He was simulating what the dog goes near daily. Some of us want to take our dogs in public all the time.
 

glen

Super Moderator
Staff member
Marke we could really learn something here, one day we maybe just maybe have multiple dogs, take them out in public, all these years weve been going round and round our backyards on our bikes getting dizzy,
We just need a prong collar, then we will be free,
 

marke

Well-Known Member
i'll tell you steve , I can tell where your at , and I know you haven't a clue where I am at …… you owned a dogue and you think you know what my dogues are like , i'd say golden retrievers they're not , but I've had enough dogs to know it's not the breed it's the dog and the raising , and my brother had one might not be what your thinking .........I've known hundreds of dogues from every origin you could possibly have owned a dogue from , very few i'd want to own , it's why I bred my own , very few i'd even add to my dogues ………. if you know your dogues pedigree run it by me , i'm sure I know the dogues , i'll give my opinion if I'd own it ………… my dogues are dog aggressive for as many generations as I know of , I know of 10 personally …... I was raised by Chuck Vinci , a friend to ed farons , we had eds dogs , my god daughters father owned little George , I know dog aggressive , I grew up around it ………. I've been pulled down in the mud and dragged by dogues trying to get to a dog when I didn't see it before them ….. I had a neightbor whose dog got in my yard , my dogs killed it , I now have double fences around my yard ..... I've brought in outside adult dogs to live here , my dogues would be intent on killing them , I've had to get them past that , I don't have the time to rotate dogs , I've never used a collar of any type to do it , and I've never rotated dogs beyond the breaking in phase ………. I have had one of my dogues put down for people aggression , I know a dogue in my pedigree that the owner used a catch pole to handle ……. I've seen my dogues raised around just about any kind of dog you could think of , I don't think mals are that aggressive I think they're drivey … the one in your video I don't see as being aggressive , but then I've known countless American bulldogs , so my perspective is a bit different than yours …...
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
Anyways, I guess no one can answer any of the questions. Since you are all experts in owning the baddest dogs on the planet, how come not one anti prong or tool person can answer how do you do an immediate correction of a dog in public around people without the tool. So i'll leave it at that. Great very educational thread.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Anyways, I guess no one can answer any of the questions. Since you are all experts in owning the baddest dogs on the planet, how come not one anti prong or tool person can answer how do you do an immediate correction of a dog in public around people without the tool. So i'll leave it at that. Great very educational thread.

I'll try to answer. I'm not a professional trainer. I just have a lot of experience as a foster home for dogs with issues. My daughter, however, is a professional. A certified trainer, not just someone that has trained a few dogs. She's a behavior technician as well as a trainer with an affinity for working with reactive dogs. She currently is working with several dog aggressive dogs on a private basis. I learn from her constantly.

My quick answer is that I wouldn't need an immediate correction because I wouldn't put my dog in that situation before it was ready to succeed. I would not wait for the dog to be reacting before correcting. And correcting would likely be in the form of a default behavior, a focus command, or a leave it.

When I have a dog that is reactive I figure out what the dog's threshold is. I start working to get a rock solid focus command and a rock solid leave it. Leave it is my command for "stop what you're doing immediately." It's my catch-all. I slowly increase distractions. If the dog can't focus/leave it, then I've moved too quickly and I take a step back. When I have a solid focus/leave it with distractions then we start to work around whatever it is that the dog is reactive to. We work at a distance that is below threshold. Most of what I do with a reactive dog is done before we ever encounter the thing the dog is reactive to. I want the dog to be able to focus on me in any situation. To disengage from the trigger and do whatever we have taught as a default behavior. I would not put the dog in a situation to react before giving the dog the tools handle the situation in a way that I feel is acceptable. Does that make sense? I set them up to succeed. If I mess up - and if they react then it's MY fault because I put them in a situation they weren't ready for - then I correct myself. It's my job as a handler to be hyper-aware of my surroundings and make sure that I'm aware of anything that could make my dog react. And then to deal with it before they have a chance to react. That doesn't mean that I don't correct my dogs. I do. I just don't use a tool to do so.

If I'm raising a dog from a puppy, we work on focus and leave it from day one. My goal with a puppy is to never allow them to develop a behavior that I will need to correct. If you can teach them from the beginning what you DO want them to do then you prevent most problem behaviors from ever starting. Again, it's about me, the human, giving them the tools to succeed in MY world.

I used to be a compulsion based trainer. I thought that was the only way to do things. I was wrong. I get a more reliable behavior by using positive methods than I ever did from aversive methods. My dogs aren't afraid to try new things for fear of being punished or corrected. They're eager to train. They're smarter. You can see the thought process as they work to figure out what exactly I want from them. They work to please me, not because they know they'll be corrected if they don't.

I'm sure I haven't answered this well. Steven, if you have a specific scenario I could probably answer better as each situation is different. Working with a reactive dog is a long process. It's baby steps. Denise Fenzi has some excellent classes for dealing with reactive dogs without using aversives. I highly recommend the Management for Reactive Dogs class as well as the Boogeyman class to anyone that would like to learn about handling reactive dogs. Actually, I recommend them to all dog owners. The techniques are useful to anyone that has a dog.

I've also watched the section of video that you mentioned several times. I do not see a dog that wants to attack the people approaching it. The third person he did react differently to, but the first two I saw no indication that the dog wanted to "attack" those people. This isn't the first time you've posted videos of and attributed aggressive behaviors to the dogs that I just didn't see. Most times the dog only reacted after the person approaching did so in a threatening manner or in a way meant to incite the dog to react. I would really like to know what you see that indicates an aggressive response to the first two people that approach the Mal in the video. The response that I see is something that could be dealt with without a choke/prong/e-collar. Tell me what you see that I don't.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
I forgot to mention that Grisha Stewart's BAT techniques as well as anything by Emma Parsons are good starting places for anyone interested in working with reactive dogs in non-compulsion based training manner. Both of them have a lot of information available online.
 

glen

Super Moderator
Staff member
Anyways, I guess no one can answer any of the questions. Since you are all experts in owning the baddest dogs on the planet, how come not one anti prong or tool person can answer how do you do an immediate correction of a dog in public around people without the tool. So i'll leave it at that. Great very educational thread.
None of us claim to own the baddest dog, thats you,
Because you cant train your poor girl you presume our dogs are not true to type.
I dont think your girl is the problem its you.
Iv seen it many many times, people that havent got a clue get these breeds, they read how they are and what they are capable of, they want to feel safe and macho.
Too many owners use these tools and yes they may help to control them when they are on leash but what happens when there not, can you still control them, maybe not, then i suppose you blame the breed.
Educational threads are only valid twhen people want to learn, you seem to shhot down every bit of anyones opinion that doesnt agree with you.
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
None of us claim to own the baddest dog, thats you,
Because you cant train your poor girl you presume our dogs are not true to type.
I dont think your girl is the problem its you.
Iv seen it many many times, people that havent got a clue get these breeds, they read how they are and what they are capable of, they want to feel safe and macho.
Too many owners use these tools and yes they may help to control them when they are on leash but what happens when there not, can you still control them, maybe not, then i suppose you blame the breed.
Educational threads are only valid twhen people want to learn, you seem to shhot down every bit of anyones opinion that doesnt agree with you.


Thanks but no thanks. I can do without what you think since its meaningless to me or anyone in the thread.
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
I'll try to answer. I'm not a professional trainer. I just have a lot of experience as a foster home for dogs with issues. My daughter, however, is a professional. A certified trainer, not just someone that has trained a few dogs. She's a behavior technician as well as a trainer with an affinity for working with reactive dogs. She currently is working with several dog aggressive dogs on a private basis. I learn from her constantly.

My quick answer is that I wouldn't need an immediate correction because I wouldn't put my dog in that situation before it was ready to succeed. I would not wait for the dog to be reacting before correcting. And correcting would likely be in the form of a default behavior, a focus command, or a leave it.

When I have a dog that is reactive I figure out what the dog's threshold is. I start working to get a rock solid focus command and a rock solid leave it. Leave it is my command for "stop what you're doing immediately." It's my catch-all. I slowly increase distractions. If the dog can't focus/leave it, then I've moved too quickly and I take a step back. When I have a solid focus/leave it with distractions then we start to work around whatever it is that the dog is reactive to. We work at a distance that is below threshold. Most of what I do with a reactive dog is done before we ever encounter the thing the dog is reactive to. I want the dog to be able to focus on me in any situation. To disengage from the trigger and do whatever we have taught as a default behavior. I would not put the dog in a situation to react before giving the dog the tools handle the situation in a way that I feel is acceptable. Does that make sense? I set them up to succeed. If I mess up - and if they react then it's MY fault because I put them in a situation they weren't ready for - then I correct myself. It's my job as a handler to be hyper-aware of my surroundings and make sure that I'm aware of anything that could make my dog react. And then to deal with it before they have a chance to react. That doesn't mean that I don't correct my dogs. I do. I just don't use a tool to do so.

If I'm raising a dog from a puppy, we work on focus and leave it from day one. My goal with a puppy is to never allow them to develop a behavior that I will need to correct. If you can teach them from the beginning what you DO want them to do then you prevent most problem behaviors from ever starting. Again, it's about me, the human, giving them the tools to succeed in MY world.

I used to be a compulsion based trainer. I thought that was the only way to do things. I was wrong. I get a more reliable behavior by using positive methods than I ever did from aversive methods. My dogs aren't afraid to try new things for fear of being punished or corrected. They're eager to train. They're smarter. You can see the thought process as they work to figure out what exactly I want from them. They work to please me, not because they know they'll be corrected if they don't.

I'm sure I haven't answered this well. Steven, if you have a specific scenario I could probably answer better as each situation is different. Working with a reactive dog is a long process. It's baby steps. Denise Fenzi has some excellent classes for dealing with reactive dogs without using aversives. I highly recommend the Management for Reactive Dogs class as well as the Boogeyman class to anyone that would like to learn about handling reactive dogs. Actually, I recommend them to all dog owners. The techniques are useful to anyone that has a dog.

I've also watched the section of video that you mentioned several times. I do not see a dog that wants to attack the people approaching it. The third person he did react differently to, but the first two I saw no indication that the dog wanted to "attack" those people. This isn't the first time you've posted videos of and attributed aggressive behaviors to the dogs that I just didn't see. Most times the dog only reacted after the person approaching did so in a threatening manner or in a way meant to incite the dog to react. I would really like to know what you see that indicates an aggressive response to the first two people that approach the Mal in the video. The response that I see is something that could be dealt with without a choke/prong/e-collar. Tell me what you see that I don't.

Fair enough answers for some dogs. I do believe that other dogs no matter how well trained can always get triggered and cause a ruckus that requires immediate correction that a verbal command will not handle fast enough but I understand where you are coming from and this def works with some dogs.

In any event I had more to say but lost my thoughts about it with the personal attacks from the "super moderators" that think my dog isn't trained. I guarantee my dog runs circles around ALL of his dogs x 10. @glen wouldn't even know how to do a compression heel if it hit him the head. But that's ok, enjoy people. Its people like that know it all that cause forums like this to fail. This thread has nothing to do with my dog, it was a general question and debate.

In hopes the large group buys this forum and gets rid of these worthless mods with their personal attack bs.

The video here was not about the aggression, it was more about how the dog reacted to people it didn't know. The trainer is a top reactive dog trainer in France and whether the dog was aggressive or not, to normal people in the street when a dog barks like that it scares them so the job was to correct that behavior.
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
Also if possible can one of the super mods delete all of my posts and my profile as I do not know how to do it. Or leave instructions on how to do it.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
this is not an uncommon temperament among Johnson American bulldogs ……….. I believe he uses an e-collar for corrections , it works , it can be done without , with desensitization , distraction and leash correction alone ……..., but I assure you these type dogs should never run amongst unfamiliar people , ever …….. these type dogs are also comfortable in a muzzle , they've usually spent a good portion of their lives in them …….on the internet when someone tells me how dangerous a dog is and goes in with street clothes , just a sleeve or coat , and no pants , you just made me skeptical ……..

ashame your leaving , you obviously could learn something from these experts here ……………….



 

glen

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ermmmm im sure a compression heel is a bandage you use if your hurt your footsie,
I do apoligise if im not taking your comment seriously but im far to busy im just about to walk fluffy,twinkles and tweety on a piece of string.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Fair enough answers for some dogs. I do believe that other dogs no matter how well trained can always get triggered and cause a ruckus that requires immediate correction that a verbal command will not handle fast enough but I understand where you are coming from and this def works with some dogs.

In any event I had more to say but lost my thoughts about it with the personal attacks from the "super moderators" that think my dog isn't trained. I guarantee my dog runs circles around ALL of his dogs x 10. @glen wouldn't even know how to do a compression heel if it hit him the head. But that's ok, enjoy people. Its people like that know it all that cause forums like this to fail. This thread has nothing to do with my dog, it was a general question and debate.

In hopes the large group buys this forum and gets rid of these worthless mods with their personal attack bs.

The video here was not about the aggression, it was more about how the dog reacted to people it didn't know. The trainer is a top reactive dog trainer in France and whether the dog was aggressive or not, to normal people in the street when a dog barks like that it scares them so the job was to correct that behavior.

Steven, I really think that we could all learn from each other. You still didn't answer my question directly. You are the one that said the dog was aggressive and trying to attack the people approaching. You said that exactly. I'm not seeing it. I think I'm pretty well versed in body language and interpreting dog behavior. I'd truly like to know what you see that I'm not seeing. What body language are you seeing in the dog that says he wants to attack those people? We can only learn if we discuss. You seem unwilling to share your knowledge and really explain why you believe what you believe. Maybe I'm totally wrong. Show me where I'm missing something.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
If by compression heel you mean what I call focused heeling - yes. That can be achieved without any tool at all. I actually teach that from the get go with no leash at all. It just takes learning how to do it and having an open mind to other techniques.
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
Steven, I really think that we could all learn from each other. You still didn't answer my question directly. You are the one that said the dog was aggressive and trying to attack the people approaching. You said that exactly. I'm not seeing it. I think I'm pretty well versed in body language and interpreting dog behavior. I'd truly like to know what you see that I'm not seeing. What body language are you seeing in the dog that says he wants to attack those people? We can only learn if we discuss. You seem unwilling to share your knowledge and really explain why you believe what you believe. Maybe I'm totally wrong. Show me where I'm missing something.

Learn from these rejects? Listen please show me how to cancel my profile here and delete all of my messages. Any site that puts a reject like this as a super mod, doesn't deserve my copy. These nutcase euro pansies against training tools. If you cannot remove my profile and all postings, give me the address and I will write a legal letter to who ever can.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
You're really not going to answer my question? *I'm* trying to learn from *you.* That's supposed to be what this forum is about. I think that the majority of this thread was very civil. I guess if you really think that there's nothing to be learned from people that have differing opinions then maybe you'll never be a real contributing member here. And that's a shame because I think you really could be helpful.
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
By the way im taking the piss. Thought id better point that out.
THEN JUDGE ME ON WHAT I CAN DO.
.

Wanted to talk about the possibility of prostate issues with Corso. We all know that @glenn pee's often as he states in the forum. But do some Corso also have prostate issues? Is leaking considered a prostate issue or just a pee issue. Is Glenn's peeing issue closely related to leaking?
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Wanted to talk about the possibility of prostate issues with Corso. We all know that @glenn pee's often as he states in the forum. But do some Corso also have prostate issues? Is leaking considered a prostate issue or just a pee issue. Is Glenn's peeing issue closely related to leaking?

Still no answer to my question. That's interesting.