Growling?

[Boxergirl]

I have to say that if I were going to have a DDB, Marke would be the breeder I'd want if he'd have me. I've never questioned his love for, and knowledge of, his breed.

 

[Steven C]

She's beautiful

Thank you April.

 

[Steven C]

I have to say that if I were going to have a DDB, Marke would be the breeder I'd want if he'd have me. I've never questioned his love for, and knowledge of, his breed.

Considering Moloser breeds to be anything like a Pitbull is just wrong. Here is a list of Molosser breeds and their primary skill. Listing Cane Corso and DDB as guard dogs. Pitbull is nowhere near the list. There is a reason why Pitbull dogs are only 500.00 and Mastiff are in the thousands, absolutely no comparison and if breeders are introducing Pitbulls into their mastiff dogs selling them as mastiff, it can only destroy the breed and the reliability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molosser

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I am not sure why there is surprise that several other breeds were used in the recovery of the corso. It was almost extinct so breeds that were readily available were used to recover what was left. In the US there has always been rumors that the "American" line dogs were not actual corso and instead were mixes of Rotties, Neos and Pits. When it comes to import lines the claims were of Boxers, Danes and some DDB/Bullmastiff... there is no romantic story... it is likely these are all truths and have brought us to what we have today as a breed.

The corso standard calls for an aloof dog, that is able to perceive a threat and act accordingly. This doesn't mean overly social dogs that love everyone and it doesn't mean overly reactive dogs that you constantly have to be on top of to ensure that they are not a danger. This means a dog that is confident enough to be in a room with strangers, and while unlikely to be seeking attention should be always watching but not reactive unless a threat is detected. Wanna guess how many of the breed actually exhibit this type of behaviour? This breed was also bred to be one of absolutely versatility, guarding being only one of the jobs.

The breeding of more social or overly aggressive (either fearful or just straight aggression) is nothing new to the breed and it has been on the downward slide since long before now. It is one of the biggest issues in the breed, added to dogs with questionable health and a complete lack of type because everyone and their mother thinks they need to breed their dog with little to no actual knowledge, and we have where the breed is now.

A couple of years ago we were lucky enough to have one of the men that was responsible for assisting during the recovery and could actually provide insight into the dogs that the standard was written off. It was a shock to a lot of those in attendance at the seminar who had thought they knew and understood what a corso temperament was, when he said that the owners were asked to leave the dogs and strangers approached the dogs who were all tied up, not huge distances from each other without issue and there was no snapping and growling. While the dogs did not seek out the attention of the strangers they were also not concerned by it, more like a fly, a pest to be tolerated but of little consequence. However, when the owners were brought back and strangers approached the dogs reaction was very different...wary and out in front of the owners. These were dogs that were straight off the farm, not ones taken from shows or people's pet homes were what the standard was written from and too often people forget that the standards were written for form to follow function and that conformation was a way to showcase your dog against the standard to prove them worthy, now it is about ribbons.

Getting a dog, now or even 10 years ago was a crap shoot... that won't change likely in my lifetime and the more society demands working dogs to act like other socially friendly breeds, it will never change. The corso is only one in a long list but there are breeders that are working to preserve the corso, they are a limited number as greed and sales rule most breeds these days, but hopefully they don't tire of the crap as breeders like that are going to be the only ones that can save the breed.

DNA testing they don't actually have a marker for Cane Corso yet, so is not 100% percent reliable but they are working towards it. I would guess that any "corso" tested is going to present with genetic markers for other breeds as it is a recovered breed, anyone who thinks they got the one pure line of corso is naive.

Since purchasing my Corso I have heard multiple stories of what is being put in them, from Pitbulls to Great Danes, neither of which would do any good for a guard dog. Although I got very lucky with mine and my research in getting a solid not only guard dog, but also a watch dog. I am not confident enough in getting another. I will stick with the Holland KNVP Dutchies moving forward as you know they are serious highly trainable dogs.

One could only imagine what putting Pitbull into Corso would do as far as making a dog docile. Pitbulls will never be guard dogs and would destroy the Corso breed all together making them super friendly and also unpredictable at times, far from a solid guarding ability. I am also hearing Boxer but old Boxer was being put in way back in Europe. Its for this reason today we are seeing such a brutal difference for example in mine from Bens dog which appears to be a happy go lucky friendly type dog that happens to be a Corso also. Although I would never purchase another Corso, I am happy that I specifically asked for working line when looking to purchase, otherwise I would feel stuck with another golden, not stuck but actually robbed. Had I known this breed was so screwed with I would have walked away back then.

A good example would be this thread, you have Ben who says he knows 30 Corso that are nothing like a good solid skilled guard dog (supposed to be natural). Then you have myself who also knows several Corso that are in fact like the Corso with supreme guarding skills. So there is a situation where Corso is being changed and confusing people with huge variations in skill or type. While I know all dogs are different, this breed should at least have similarities in performance which obviously it no longer does. Now its a crap shoot on whether or not you get what you paid several thousand dollars for. DNA testing is a good way to see if you got Pitbull or any other non guardian blood in their.


View attachment 61491

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Considering Moloser breeds to be anything like a Pitbull is just wrong. Here is a list of Molosser breeds and their primary skill. Listing Cane Corso and DDB as guard dogs. Pitbull is nowhere near the list. There is a reason why Pitbull dogs are only 500.00 and Mastiff are in the thousands, absolutely no comparison and if breeders are introducing Pitbulls into their mastiff dogs selling them as mastiff, it can only destroy the breed and the reliability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molosser

Wikipedia is not something I would reference as an accurate resource of anything. Anyone can post any information, correct or not in regards to a subject. The breed was more than just a guard dog, it was a breed that was bred to be versatile and do whatever the owner required...it is what makes them easy to train and work with.

 

[Steven C]

Wikipedia is not something I would reference as an accurate resource of anything. Anyone can post any information, correct or not in regards to a subject. The breed was more than just a guard dog, it was a breed that was bred to be versatile and do whatever the owner required...it is what makes them easy to train and work with.

Right but it at least gives an idea that Molosser breeds are born with guarding ability. I went through the list and the only dog that surprised me on the list that I didn't know was molosser was Rotty. I cant stand anyone comparing Mastiff with Pitbull as there is zero comparison in the two. It is degrading especially to DDB a supreme still to this day guard dog.

And any Molloser breeder should know the basis is guarding. So if you buy a Corso or a DDB and only do some obedience training, you will still get a guard dog out of the womb. This is not so with GSD, Pitbull or any of these other dogs that are good to train for protection but just not born guardians. I know of 1 case on going right now against a Corso breeder using a DNA test so something in their is working. Not good buying 24 karat and ending up with gold plated.

I am going to do one as well out of curiosity of what may be mixed into mine, especially being from Portugal and Ukraine.

 

[April Nicole]

Glad to have you back Steven.. You always strike up good conversations. I'm enjoying the input from this one. I think everyone has valid points. I believe that Pitt Bulls are a good breed that all too often fall into the wrong hands, and as in the video Marke posted ,excell with proper trainers.
But I somewhat agree with Steven that lines are being muddied up. Black Shadow Corso explained it perfectly. That's why we chose a C.A.S. And sadly, if they continue to grow in popularity in the states, I'm sure they will be tampered with as well. Already, they are breeding them to be larger with more of an underbite in Russia. Thankfully there are breeders that stay true to the breed, and refuse to experiment. The benefits are notable. Keeping them true to their natural lines results in healthier, more even tempered working dogs.
People go too far to try to get a "certain look" size" form" color" etc.. And end up ruining a good breed. A prime example would be Neos. Not saying what they are now is ruined, but it's a far cry from what they once were. And the health problems that accompany the changes that have been made to that specific breed is staggering. In my opinion the past Neos were outstanding. And don't get me wrong, I am not saying breeding for size look, color etc.. is wrong. I just think some take it too far.

 

[marke]

I am very surprised you breed DDB. You should know the difference between guard dogs and trained protection dogs. You can train a poodle to be a protection dog and Pitbulls are very trainable. Corso and Bordeuax on paper are supposed to be the 2 most guardian dogs in the world aside from their cousins, presa, tibetin ect.

your surprised ????

i'm guessing I do know the difference , a trained protection dog got about a 75% chance of protecting you , natural "guard dogs" got about a 10% chance of guarding anything other than themselves , not that possibly something else might get guarded as a side effect ………

not sure what pitbulls your familiar with , but I've known lots of folks bred , trained and titled non-traditional protection dogs , and most all of them had some pitbull in their dogs , some were pitbulls , those dogs don't quit ….anybody in Europe breeding "bandogs" ?? in 2017 I believe 24 adults were killed by dogs in the U.S. , 21 of them by pitbulls , I assure you none of them were trained …… over the last 2 decades 2/3rds of the people killed by dogs were killed by pitbulls , rotts being a far far distant 2nd ……...

here's some quotes from david hancock 's book "The Mastiffs: The Big Game Hunters - Their History, Development and Future"

https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obido...96231/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/202-3861416-0478222

"Even 2,000 years ago, in many parts of the world, the success of the hunting dogs was, for their human owners, the difference between eating or starving. Powerful heavy hounds were invaluable in times when, before the invention of firearms, man needed to catch and kill big game."

"The hounds of the chase can catch up with and then 'bay' the quarry, but the 'killing' or capture dogs have to seize and hold it. This was the task of the mastiffs, with their enormous physical strength, immense courage, considerable fortitude and the remarkable gripping capabilities afforded by their mighty broad mouths. "

"As a broad-mouthed breed, each mastiff breed belongs to a brave and distinguished group of dogs. Their instinct to seize and hold their quarry was prized by man down the ages. Man was a hunter before he was a farmer and powerful hunting dogs were the difference between living and dying before the invention of firearms"

" The life-threatening task of seizing the prey fell to the 'holding dogs', huge determined dogs of reckless courage and immense neck and jaw strength. "

" From their employment by primitive hunters to pull down or 'hold' or pin large animals needed by the hunters for meat and skin to their use as watchdogs and protection dogs in more recent times, the mastiff breeds have long served man, many losing their lives in doing so. Huge wild creatures such as aurochs, bison, boar and stags are formidable adversaries; only the mastiff breeds had the courage, strength, agility and fortitude to tackle such quarry. Moral judgements made today on hunting cannot diminish the remarkable physical and mental qualities of dogs expected by man to fulfil a function in times when man either hunted successfully or starved. We should respect the heritage of the mastiff breeds and then honour it by breeding healthy, virile, physically powerful but mentally stable dogs, for that is their historic mould. "


perro de pressa are hunting fighting dogs everywhere they are found , ca de bou , presa canario , I believe cane corso was once known as "cane da pressa" ? I think that might translate to something like gripping dog ? as in catch dog ? cane corso history pretty much mirrors America's American bulldog ………….

 

[Steven C]

your surprised ????

i'm guessing I do know the difference , a trained protection dog got about a 75% chance of protecting you , natural "guard dogs" got about a 10% chance of guarding anything other than themselves , not that possibly something else might get guarded as a side effect ………

not sure what pitbulls your familiar with , but I've known lots of folks bred , trained and titled non-traditional protection dogs , and most all of them had some pitbull in their dogs , some were pitbulls , those dogs don't quit ….anybody in Europe breeding "bandogs" ?? in 2017 I believe 24 adults were killed by dogs in the U.S. , 21 of them by pitbulls , I assure you none of them were trained …… over the last 2 decades 2/3rds of the people killed by dogs were killed by pitbulls , rotts being a far far distant 2nd ……...

here's some quotes from david hancock 's book "The Mastiffs: The Big Game Hunters - Their History, Development and Future"

https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obido...96231/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/202-3861416-0478222

"Even 2,000 years ago, in many parts of the world, the success of the hunting dogs was, for their human owners, the difference between eating or starving. Powerful heavy hounds were invaluable in times when, before the invention of firearms, man needed to catch and kill big game."

"The hounds of the chase can catch up with and then 'bay' the quarry, but the 'killing' or capture dogs have to seize and hold it. This was the task of the mastiffs, with their enormous physical strength, immense courage, considerable fortitude and the remarkable gripping capabilities afforded by their mighty broad mouths. "

"As a broad-mouthed breed, each mastiff breed belongs to a brave and distinguished group of dogs. Their instinct to seize and hold their quarry was prized by man down the ages. Man was a hunter before he was a farmer and powerful hunting dogs were the difference between living and dying before the invention of firearms"

" The life-threatening task of seizing the prey fell to the 'holding dogs', huge determined dogs of reckless courage and immense neck and jaw strength. "

" From their employment by primitive hunters to pull down or 'hold' or pin large animals needed by the hunters for meat and skin to their use as watchdogs and protection dogs in more recent times, the mastiff breeds have long served man, many losing their lives in doing so. Huge wild creatures such as aurochs, bison, boar and stags are formidable adversaries; only the mastiff breeds had the courage, strength, agility and fortitude to tackle such quarry. Moral judgements made today on hunting cannot diminish the remarkable physical and mental qualities of dogs expected by man to fulfil a function in times when man either hunted successfully or starved. We should respect the heritage of the mastiff breeds and then honour it by breeding healthy, virile, physically powerful but mentally stable dogs, for that is their historic mould. "


perro de pressa are hunting fighting dogs everywhere they are found , ca de bou , presa canario , I believe cane corso was once known as "cane da pressa" ? I think that might translate to something like gripping dog ? as in catch dog ? cane corso history pretty much mirrors America's American bulldog ………….

I know they don't quit, its one of the reasons I have zero interest in Pitbulls. They could have 1 leg chewed off and still want to fight which is really amazing, but the recall is terrible so it disqualifies it from me. I can recall my Corso from a full bite on a tug with no trouble and the same goes for my DDB. I do not need a tent spike to open their mouths.

I have nothing against any animals or breeds, its just not the dog for me and there is a reason why Pitbulls are a much less expensive dog. There is no comparison to a real moloser dog and you and I have much different opinions on guarding skills of DDB. I have a book full of stories of the guarding skills of my DDB, including jumping straight into a slow moving taxi that was a threat, the MS 13 problem I had in Florida w my wife DDb saved our lives and many other stories of why you are underestimating the abilities of DDB, which surprises me from someone who loves the breed so much. If they did better in heat, I would get another one in a second without worrying about its skills.

I have been finding kennels in Holland for my KNVP Dutchie and some of these kennels are now adding Pitbull into Mali's and Dutchies. They are never satisfied, trying to get the Police contracts. So in KNVP you kind of have to rely on the kennel to tell you what you are getting as they are non papered dogs.

 

[marke]

Steven , i'm way past estimating …………… I know what they're capable of , I've had to prove it many times ….. I have a video of one of my dogues running I believe 9 miles in like 50 minutes on u-tube …….. the bitch in the earlier black and white pic could run 6 miles in 30-35 minutes on an 80 degree day without the slightest issue …….. I had one I took out one early spring day , it was warm , when we got done I found out it was 79 degrees , we ran 6 miles in around 35-40 minutes , she weighed 159lbs ………. the bitch pictured below ran 20 miles with me in 3 hours , she waited on me …… my house never been broke into , and I've lived in some nationally ranked crime riddled neighborhoods ….

they been putting pitbulls in dutch shepherds since the 1970's that I've heard ……...

 

[April Nicole]

Steven , i'm way past estimating …………… I know what they're capable of , I've had to prove it many times ….. I have a video of one of my dogues running I believe 9 miles in like 50 minutes on u-tube …….. the bitch in the earlier black and white pic could run 6 miles in 30-35 minutes on an 80 degree day without the slightest issue …….. I had one I took out one early spring day , it was warm , when we got done I found out it was 79 degrees , we ran 6 miles in around 35-40 minutes , she weighed 159lbs ………. the bitch pictured below ran 20 miles with me in 3 hours , she waited on me …… my house never been broke into , and I've lived in some nationally ranked crime riddled neighborhoods ….

they been putting pitbulls in dutch shepherds since the 1970's that I've heard ……...

Stunning!

 

[timchristi]

BEAUTIFUL DOG!

Steven , i'm way past estimating …………… I know what they're capable of , I've had to prove it many times ….. I have a video of one of my dogues running I believe 9 miles in like 50 minutes on u-tube …….. the bitch in the earlier black and white pic could run 6 miles in 30-35 minutes on an 80 degree day without the slightest issue …….. I had one I took out one early spring day , it was warm , when we got done I found out it was 79 degrees , we ran 6 miles in around 35-40 minutes , she weighed 159lbs ………. the bitch pictured below ran 20 miles with me in 3 hours , she waited on me …… my house never been broke into , and I've lived in some nationally ranked crime riddled neighborhoods ….

they been putting pitbulls in dutch shepherds since the 1970's that I've heard ……...

Steven , i'm way past estimating …………… I know what they're capable of , I've had to prove it many times ….. I have a video of one of my dogues running I believe 9 miles in like 50 minutes on u-tube …….. the bitch in the earlier black and white pic could run 6 miles in 30-35 minutes on an 80 degree day without the slightest issue …….. I had one I took out one early spring day , it was warm , when we got done I found out it was 79 degrees , we ran 6 miles in around 35-40 minutes , she weighed 159lbs ………. the bitch pictured below ran 20 miles with me in 3 hours , she waited on me …… my house never been broke into , and I've lived in some nationally ranked crime riddled neighborhoods ….

they been putting pitbulls in dutch shepherds since the 1970's that I've heard ……...

 

[marke]

thank you .......there was never a doubt she was special , I felt lucky to have her ……..

 

[Boxergirl]

How's Enzo doing, Ben?

 

[Ben Curtis]

How's Enzo doing, Ben?

Enzo still growls at anyone coming through the door. He stops immediately as soon as he recognizes someone.
If we introduce outside, he stops growling as soon as we tell him enough, get his attention, and tell him "friends" (overly positive). If we have that person walk him in with the leash, we don't get anymore growling. Unless he falls asleep and is woken up by the new person's voice. We have not tried coming inside without being led by the new person.
If we introduce inside, we usually have to separate him to his kennel, because he does not calm down as quickly. When he calms down, he is allowed to join us, and he does not growl again.
In all cases he is very cautious around the new people, which I don't mind at all. I'm hoping with all the continued positive interaction he will become more and more confident as we have been seeing in his body language lately. I am slightly worried that this becomes a fear of new people, and we end up with a bigger issue on our hands, but for now it seems like we are moving in a good direction.

Targeting training has already been useful in day to day life. We just got him to target my daughters hand across the room. We will keep practicing this, and hopefully this is another tool we have in our box for introductions.

After thinking about all of this quite a bit, and what we might have done wrong in the beginning. I've realized that when we met Enzo he was a very confident puppy. Even the breeder has asked what happened to change him. I personally don't think he has changed at all. As part of his pack (2 sisters, grandma, and dad) he was confident because they were confident as a group. He was not forced to meet anyone on his own as far as I know. We have also been dealing with a bit of separation anxiety. Broke the bars in his old kennel to get out.

From birth he was always in his pack, and with us someone is always home. I'm thinking getting him at 6 1/2 months is part of the issue, and the other part was that we were slow to realize the difference between socialization outside the home and inside the home, and we should have been making it more of a point to leave him alone more.

I've attached an image of Enzo in his new kennel. You can clearly see the scabs on his nose from his last escape. He's already chilled out so much more being left in his new kennel while we leave. I think just thinking that he can't break out of this one has him not attempting it at all. We also have been making it a point to leaving for short periods of time and coming back.

In the end Enzo is progressing very well, and I am so grateful to all that have helped.

Thanks,
Ben

 

[Boxergirl]

This is a really good update, Ben. I'm glad he's calming down in the new kennel. You're doing a great job with him. I wish all owners were as in tune with their dogs.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Enzo still growls at anyone coming through the door. He stops immediately as soon as he recognizes someone.
If we introduce outside, he stops growling as soon as we tell him enough, get his attention, and tell him "friends" (overly positive). If we have that person walk him in with the leash, we don't get anymore growling. Unless he falls asleep and is woken up by the new person's voice. We have not tried coming inside without being led by the new person.
If we introduce inside, we usually have to separate him to his kennel, because he does not calm down as quickly. When he calms down, he is allowed to join us, and he does not growl again.
In all cases he is very cautious around the new people, which I don't mind at all. I'm hoping with all the continued positive interaction he will become more and more confident as we have been seeing in his body language lately. I am slightly worried that this becomes a fear of new people, and we end up with a bigger issue on our hands, but for now it seems like we are moving in a good direction.

Targeting training has already been useful in day to day life. We just got him to target my daughters hand across the room. We will keep practicing this, and hopefully this is another tool we have in our box for introductions.

After thinking about all of this quite a bit, and what we might have done wrong in the beginning. I've realized that when we met Enzo he was a very confident puppy. Even the breeder has asked what happened to change him. I personally don't think he has changed at all. As part of his pack (2 sisters, grandma, and dad) he was confident because they were confident as a group. He was not forced to meet anyone on his own as far as I know. We have also been dealing with a bit of separation anxiety. Broke the bars in his old kennel to get out.

From birth he was always in his pack, and with us someone is always home. I'm thinking getting him at 6 1/2 months is part of the issue, and the other part was that we were slow to realize the difference between socialization outside the home and inside the home, and we should have been making it more of a point to leave him alone more.

I've attached an image of Enzo in his new kennel. You can clearly see the scabs on his nose from his last escape. He's already chilled out so much more being left in his new kennel while we leave. I think just thinking that he can't break out of this one has him not attempting it at all. We also have been making it a point to leaving for short periods of time and coming back.

In the end Enzo is progressing very well, and I am so grateful to all that have helped.

Thanks,
Ben

That is the thing that is hardest, in a home where they are used it they always appear confident. Our first litter we had a fawn male that we thought was super confident. He was the first to do anything, was into everything, was the first one to greet everyone, and get out of the pens. But we also do an outside evaluation where the dogs are removed from the home, to unfamiliar but safe surroundings and strangers evaluate (Volhard's testing, adjusted a bit for corso instead of labs) and it turns out that he was what they call a puffer fish, brave in his own surroundings and when the others are around but when on his own in the unfamiliar he lacked the confidence. I now never assume because they act a certain way in my home that they will act that way in every location or in a new home and force exposure to all things in and out of the house.

I also agree that I think dog that are never left alone or put up to just be alone seem to suffer far more from SA than others. We recommend even those that are home all the time leave the puppy at home (crated until they can be safely left out if the owners wish) often when the puppies are young to get them comfortable with being on their own. We haven't ever had a dog with SA and all dogs are crate trained and have no issue going in and out as they know it is their safe place.

I am glad to hear of the progress you are making and hope he continues to progress.

 

[Ben Curtis]

Don't know why I did not think of this before, but I brought out Enzo's clicker that we have not used in quite some time when a guest was coming over. Enzo knows that click = treat. He's been much less aggressive lately, and the growling is very minimal, but as he approached I clicked, and he looked back for the treat. I just repeated when ever I wanted his attention. Tried this on two occasions, and then last night UPS showed up. With out even clicking Enzo was looking at me for treats instead of the stranger.

Wish I had thought of this earlier. What an easy way to distract his attention in such a positive way.

Thanks,
Ben