What's new
Mastiff Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Welcome back!

    We decided to spruce things up and fix some things under the hood. If you notice any issues, feel free to contact us as we're sure there are a few things here or there that we might have missed in our upgrade.

Growling?

Ben Curtis

Well-Known Member
Enzo is great in public meeting strangers. He doesn't go out of his way to meet anyone, but will greet people on command, and will let people pet him.

At home is a different story. We recently had two deliveries, and my daughters new boyfriend over, and he growled the entire time they were there. All gave him prizes. All seemed confident with dogs, and none did anything to provoke or make Enzo uncomfortable.

His growl is a low rumble. If I would make an interpretation of its meaning it would be "I don't trust you" is what he is trying to say. A few weeks ago I think this behavior was out of fear, but now he is becoming confident. In the past the growl would end shortly, and I was fine with that. Now it's not ending, and I can see this becoming a problem, and I'm not sure how I should handle this.

Looking back I probably should have done more socialization at home, but I figured meeting people out and around at different places would be enough, but I seem to be wrong.

What would you recommend?

I've been telling people to let Enzo approach you. We have been giving new people prizes to give Enzo. Telling strangers not to pat him until he seems comfortable, and not to reach for his head at all. I would say he has had no negative experiences to date.

I'm thinking of telling him "quiet" and rewarding him if he stops growling to try and make it into a command.

I know I need to start having a steady stream of people coming over.

Thanks,
Ben
 

glen

Super Moderator
Staff member
We had and have the same situation, my boys dont do good with anyone they dont know coming into the house, everyone in the family and close friends got to know them as pups so there great with them, but budcuss and gandalf take time to get used to new people,
Iv used the word enough for them when i want them to stop, once they stop i treat, new people i dont allow to feed dogs anything for a long time,
My daughters got a new boyfriend so when he comes for the first time bud and gandy will be behind a pet gate for the first few times until they see that hes a permanent part of the family, then when i see there comfortable and the boyfriend relaxed they will be in the same room,
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Little late to this post. I would work on having him really solid with place. I would have him go to his place and remain there whenever anyone comes over - for now. I would also adopt a "no look, no touch, no talk" policy for all visitors. Do you have a phrase that tells him you've got things under control and he can stand down? I'd work on that as well. I just use, "I've got this." Also a very solid "leave it." That, for us, means stop what you're doing or drop whatever you have immediately. Be very aware of his body language and catch it before he goes over threshold.

I would be especially careful since you mention a new boyfriend. Kids are silly and touchy/feely. Maybe not when you can see Dad, but when you can't. Laughing from tickling or horsing around can be a huge trigger. There needs to be a rule for no horsing around where he feels the need to protect your daughter.

Ella doesn't do well with people coming into the house. I make sure that I let her know that the person is welcome and then I have her go home. When we're settled, she is released and allowed to approach in her own time. The visitor is told to completely ignore her. If they aren't able to do that, then she is crated just to prevent any possible issue. Some people she's great with in a few minutes. Others she's wary of for a long time. Some she never truly cares for, and those people usually end up not being around for long. (Told me a lot about the guys that were interested in my girls.)
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
I also forgot. Enzo is still young. How old is he again? At this age his responses are possibly, maybe even probably, fear based.
 

Ben Curtis

Well-Known Member
I also forgot. Enzo is still young. How old is he again? At this age his responses are possibly, maybe even probably, fear based.
Enzo is only 7 months. In talking to our breeder, she thinks we should not put up with it, and show him we are in control. That once a guest has been invited into the home, that should be his cue that they are welcome. To correct the growl. That he needs to know that once he is told enough, it means enough. (i'm considering getting a small squirt gun)
She thinks we should introduce him to people outside the house. Put him on the leash, and have them walk him into the house. Have them stay for around 15 minutes while we leave the room and come back. Let them also walk him around the house on the leash.
We should have him learn to meet people on our terms not his. It is our house, and Enzo lives there.
Boxergirl, as usual I very much appreciate your input. I was actually hoping for more input from others. I like all you have said, and it might be what it comes to if we can't break him of this habit going the course that my breeder suggests. I would say his response is somewhat fear based. I'd say for the most part he is out of the fear stage.
For right now I'm going to try what the breeder suggested. We have a steady stream of people coming over to meet him. We plan to fill the next month with someone coming over almost any day, if we can find the man power.

I am still very open to suggestions, and would very much any input and ideas. I can see this snowballing into a bigger issue quickly.
 

Attachments

  • Enzo Grad.jpg
    Enzo Grad.jpg
    256.5 KB · Views: 6

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
I disagree with using a squirt gun to correct him, or any physical punishment. Especially at 7 months. You risk negative fallout when you use a punishment that he may associate with the strangers being in the house. It's about changing his emotional state. He's still a baby. And I highly doubt he's out of his fear stage. It's fine that enough means enough. Send him to his place and require that he remain there until you say otherwise. It should be his safe place where he can watch the goings on and see that there's nothing to be worried about.

I'm all about structure. My house is considered boot camp by a lot of people. I can't tell you the last time I've needed to resort to any type of punishment to change a behavior. The fallout from punishing a dog that is afraid can cause long lasting issues and undermine his trust in you. You want people in your home to be a very positive thing. No punishment should be associated with it. I am strongly against the advice to use any physical (that includes a squirt gun) punishment on a 7 month old pup for this issue. My advice might be different if we were talking about an older dog, but 7 months is just a baby. A very impressionable baby.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
I wanted to add that I think having a lot of people over is fine. Depending on how they interact with him. Keeping him on leash is great. You're still socializing him. Socializing doesn't mean that he has to meet and interact with every thing and every one. It means that he should be exposed to people of all shapes, sizes, colors. People wearing normal clothing and weird things. Exposure to everything in a positive manner and on his terms. So that when he's faced with something different, he's okay with it.
 

Ben Curtis

Well-Known Member
Boxergirl, loved the article, and here is my new plan.

Introduce to strangers outside
Correct with "enough" if growl happens
treat quietness after 5 to 10 seconds
If he seems comfortable with them, give leash to them and let them lead him into the house.

If he is not comfortable let stranger go into the house while Enzo stays, and call him inside after, and let him go to a comfortable spot with out having to approach the stranger.

Have the stranger toss a treat to Enzo and step back
Repeat a few times with shorter and shorter distances
Have the stranger try to put Enzo in a sit and repeat the toss and step back
Hopefully progress this into Enzo taking the treat out of the strangers hand
Keep repeating with the goal being to have Enzo comfortable with a scratch / pet behind the ears

All the time being very aware of his comfort, and allowing him to retreat if he wants to.

I think the outdoor approach will skip right over the growling all together, and the indoor work will build his confidence.

Please feel free to help me adjust this plan, but I'm liking that I have a direction.

Thanks again, Boxergirl
 

Nik

Well-Known Member
I think Boxergirl has pretty much covered it. But, I also wanted to point out that you don't really want to discourage growling. A dog that growls is giving verbal cues and letting you know their limits. You don't want your dog to decide that growling is bad and gets them in trouble because then they wont give warning before reaching their limits.

I also believe you should never force a dog to interact with your visitors and you should make sure they know not to approach or try to interact with your dog in any way before the dog is ready. We use separation with our dogs if its needed when guests are over... When Diesel was younger we would put him behind a gate in a different room or put him a crate. Have the guests ignore the dog. Kahlua we never needed to separate in that way she is fine with guests so long as they don't come near her and ignore her. Both dogs warm up once the guests have been here for a certain amount of time and they feel comfortable and used to the new people.

All of that said... I am curious is this new boyfriend the only person Enzo reacts to so strongly? If we want to assume that the dog isn't giving you an accurate review of the boyfriend's character then you may want to consider other things that could be setting Enzo off (the physical contact with your daughter as Boxergirl suggested, did he drink any alcohol prior to the visit, does he do drugs of any sort... if his scent is effected by internal influences like drugs or alcohol that could be a thing that Enzo is reacting to as well). Additionally, is it possible the new boyfriend is afraid of Enzo or has some negative feelings towards him that would also effect his scent and could lead to his reaction.
 

Ben Curtis

Well-Known Member
Nik,
Enzo has done it to two separate sets of delivery people and my daughters boyfriend. This boyfriend is 15, honors student, and very comfortable around dogs, and did exactly as my wife instructed. Enzo seems to be more cautious around males, especially taller males, and this boy is 6'-2". If Enzo had met him at a neutral site, I'm willing to bet he would have been cautious but would have let him pet him.
I do understand that pushing Enzo to hard to meet someone is an issue, and that won't happen. I also think that if I just allow him to avoid the situation then I will also have a situation I don't want, so I have to cautiously handle the situation, and all of your input will be invaluable when dealing with this.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
I think that sounds like a much better plan. The dogs I've worked with, some of it would be moving much too fast, but you know your boy best. As long as you're willing to let him set the pace, are cognizant of his comfort level, and willing to let him retreat if necessary, then I think you'll be fine. I 100% agree with not punishing a growl. You don't want to discourage his only way to communicate his discomfort. Please let us know how it's going.
 

Ben Curtis

Well-Known Member
Update:
Boyfriend came over again. Enzo growled and cowered and shook from a safe distance away. Wife and daughter could not get him to calm down, and after a few minutes let him outside. A few minutes later he came back in, and was fine with the boyfriend. The growling has stopped.
 

Ben Curtis

Well-Known Member
We have been correcting the growl with "enough!" the first time. If it happens again we send him to his kennel. He usually shivers in there for a couple of minutes, and them calms down. After that he has yet to growl again. We allow him his freedom of movement and don't push greetings on him, but usually he slowly becomes curious, and we have the stranger with treats ready to give once he approaches.

We have a local lady who comes by and lets the dog out an exercises him if we are gone. We have hired her to come buy and let him out and walk him around. Yesterday she came by for the first time, and what I described above happened. We then took it outside, and she led Enzo, off leash around the property with me trailing behind. He then played Frisbee with her.

Today she came by, with my wife intentionally in the other room, with Enzo in the crate. She let herself in, and Enzo growled, and we did not correct. She let him out of the kennel with the front door open to try and coax him outside. He went to the side door instead. She looped the leash over his head, and led him outside. He went with her, and once outside walked very well with her, and never growled. She took him inside, and they were very friendly together.

I'm hoping the growl will lessen tomorrow, and he will go with her more freely.

I'm thinking we are on a good path to help him get over this fear he has. We are taking baby steps with him, and we've already seen some progress.

On another note, Enzo just completed his first 5 minute stays, and 2:30 outdoors (with snowballs being thrown all around him for distractions). I've been increasing 15 seconds or so each day for the last week or so, and he's yet to fail any stays yet. Proud of my big baby.

Thanks again,
Ben
 

Ben Curtis

Well-Known Member
Growling was worse today. Back to the drawing board. Somehow need to find a baseline where he is comfortable and build from there. I'm very open to more ideas. I'm getting worried that this is going to be a big problem.
 

Nik

Well-Known Member
You said he does better when not in the home? Perhaps meeting the boyfriend out of the home and having him join you for some walks and park time? If he gets to know him out of the home maybe he will be more comfortable in the home.
 

Ben Curtis

Well-Known Member
He is fine meeting anyone in public, and we do introduce people to him outside, and we need to get back to that. Unfortunately we needed someone to be able to come to the house and let him out so we could go see our family. The first day trial of this worked well, and we figured the 3rd day of meeting the same person we'd see some improvement, but it was much worse on the 3rd day compared to the 2nd day.

I know this is like training, sometimes you need to take a step back, but his reaction today caught us off guard.

Also seems to forget he was just comfortable with someone, and out of no where goes back to being scared.
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
Growling was worse today. Back to the drawing board. Somehow need to find a baseline where he is comfortable and build from there. I'm very open to more ideas. I'm getting worried that this is going to be a big problem.

I stumbled on to this as I normally don't comment here. However, I would hate to see this dog end up in a rescue. This is a Cane Corso, a guardian breed. He is growling as he is doing his job. If you feel the growl is inappropriate the "enough" will not work yet. This is a highly dominant breed that needs dominant corrections. If you do not start doing proper corrections, this will get much worse as the dog matures. Get a prong collar and leave the dog leashed with you when you let someone in. If you feel its innapropriate the dog growls and you say no, do a small correction with the prong, if the small correction doesn't work, do a stronger correction until the growl stops. This will let the dog know that you are in charge and the dog needs to trust you. Don't worry, you will not hurt the dog. This is a tickle to them, enough to cause a reminder that you are in charge. 6 months is a perfect age to start proper corrections as 1 year might get out of hand for a new guardian breed owner.

We have a very dominant female Corso that took my wife a long time to become a leader over. Its an energy thing, its hard to fake dominance, the dog constantly misbehaved with her only but she decided to learn to no longer be weak and now the dog obeys her just as much as me. She began petting the dog less and working her more. Excessive petting is a sign of weakness to a guardian breed.

When you the master walks in the room when the dog is misbehaving, he should automatically stop once you appear as he knows he is misbehaving. I have learned in the last year that many folks buying these Corso are thinking they are getting a Golden retriever. These are not dogs to take in public to allow people to slobber over, these dogs do not trust outside of the family and never will, they have to trust you which requires you to take leadership. When you take the dog out in public, you walk and do not allow the dog to focus on anyone except you., when someone comes in the house, you keep the dog leashed until the dog obeys you.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
I thought about this all night, in context to Steven's reply, (good to see you again, Steven C.) and I think I've organized my thoughts.

I don't have a problem with correction per se, I feel that in a situation where we haven't seen the dog - and aren't certified behaviorists - that advising certain things can be risky. I 100% agree with leashing Enzo in the house. I agree with making one walk a day a structured working walk - or split the walk up into working and relaxed. I also agree with reminding him that you've "got it" and he can stand down. The problem is that I don't believe Enzo is growling because he's presenting a guarding behavior. From everything you've described, Enzo is very frightened. You described him as growling and cowering. That's an extreme fear response from such a young dog. You can't punish away, or correct an emotion. You can only suppress it, and that's not healthy or healing.

Steven C's dog, from his descriptions of her, has always been a confident and assertive dog. I've been reading your posts from the time you brought Enzo home and he doesn't appear to be a confident and assertive dog. It's very important to really look at the dog in front of you and train *that* dog. It may be that a stern correction will stop the growling. The problem with that is that just because you've stopped the behavior, you haven't taken away the fear or changed how the dog feels about what's causing the fear. That makes for a very unreliable dog long term. Your dog may stop the behavior when his or her people are right there, but that doesn't mean that you'll be able to have someone come in when you aren't home. That will take time to build a relationship where the dog trusts the person meant to be his caregiver. It also doesn't mean that the fear has gone away and then you run the risk of what happens if that fear just gets to be too much. That, imo, is the problem of working to stop just the behavior rather than also changing the mindset that is causing the behavior.

So I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Steven or saying that a correction is going to ruin your dog. I'm suggesting exercising caution and being aware that stopping the behavior in the moment doesn't necessarily mean a life long solution. Humans are hard wired to punish and correct. It's a lot easier and quicker to stop a behavior in the now than to change the underlying emotional response that's causing the undesirable behavior. It's really worth the time to make sure that this is handled in the best way for your dog so you can end up with a confident and reliable dog in the future.

Please consider bringing in a professional that can help you evaluate the situation. Are you open to a consultation with a certified behaviorist or even a veterinary technician with a specialty in behavior? If you'd like to share your location I can see if there's anyone in your area that looks good. I would strongly suggest getting videos of the behaviors that are troubling you so that you can have a professional evaluate the situation, even if they can't be there in person. A fearful dog can be a dangerous dog. I know. I lived with one for many years. The assertive dogs I've had have been easier by far to work with than the genetically fearful one.

One last thought ... Did you meet Enzo's parents? What were they like? I know that he was older when you brought him home. That indicates that the breeder initially kept him for their program and then changed their mind. I know that happens all the time, but I wonder if you know exactly why he became available?