CC or mix?

[Steven C]

Yes that is Diesel in my avatar. He was an oopsie litter when the families DDB got out and mated with the neighbor's mutt. We dna tested him confirming that he is 1/2 DDB and his other 1/2 is a staffordshire and boxer mix. The avatar pic is when he was a puppy. For some reason I can't update anything on here anymore (signature, avatar)... I haven't tried in a couple months though since I was first unable to update.

Below are some more recent ones that I have on hand right now. I used to have a lot more on my computer but then my computer crashed and I lost everything on it. I expect after we move I'll be taking a whole bunch of photos.

Kahlua is the smaller dog and she is 1/2 boxer, 1/4 cane corso, 1/8 olde bulle dogge and 1/8 american bull dog.

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I think they actually have a name for that mix, less the Boxer called a Banddog. That dog looks like he can hold his own, very strong and good looking.

 

[Boxergirl]

Annette, what is it exactly that you're wanting? I understand that there was some discrepancy with the microchip registration and you have doubts about whether your dog is pure CC. Have you done a DNA test? What exactly are you looking for? What would make things "right" for you? Because I have to be honest ... you bought a 5 month old pup. She can't have suddenly changed that much in appearance.

I understand that you need this dog to perform certain service dog duties for your daughter. Believe me, I really do understand that, but purchasing any pup for that job is just a guess. Many more dogs are washed than actually make it to service dog status. You (generic) are buying a potential service dog, just like others may have been buying a potential show quality dog. It's usually safer, if one needs a dog to perform certain tasks that require it to be of a specific build or to be a natural alerter (not all dogs are), that one buys an already trained adult SD. I also know most people can't afford that, but it's really the only way to guarantee that you'll get a dog that will be able to perform to your specific needs.

I do understand being frustrated and perhaps disappointed that the dog may not be able to perform the duties you need, but I'm just not understanding what specifically you want done to make this right.

 

[Annette Coleman]

Yes that is Diesel in my avatar. He was an oopsie litter when the families DDB got out and mated with the neighbor's mutt. We dna tested him confirming that he is 1/2 DDB and his other 1/2 is a staffordshire and boxer mix. The avatar pic is when he was a puppy. For some reason I can't update anything on here anymore (signature, avatar)... I haven't tried in a couple months though since I was first unable to update.

Below are some more recent ones that I have on hand right now. I used to have a lot more on my computer but then my computer crashed and I lost everything on it. I expect after we move I'll be taking a whole bunch of photos.

Kahlua is the smaller dog and she is 1/2 boxer, 1/4 cane corso, 1/8 olde bulle dogge and 1/8 american bull dog.

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They are adorable! !

 

[Justin B.]

I think they actually have a name for that mix, less the Boxer called a Banddog. That dog looks like he can hold his own, very strong and good looking.

Banddog ussualy means when you cross a mastiff type dog with a bull terrier type dog...more if a generic word.

They are many differnt formulas and crosses
Many people have tried to trademark it and failed

I actually think the Cane Corso or the working Neo was the Original Banddog. Because it is an old Roman term used to describe dogs that were bound by a band (rope or chain) durring the day and released to guard property against theifs at night. Legend says the dogs instinctly knew the oweners property lines and would patrol. I find that out of all the breeds I have experienced Cane Corsos roam off the property lines the least and learn your property way faster than the other breeds I owned. Also, there are old Banddog statues and art that resemble working Neos and Cane Corsos from their homeland.

People tried to recreate the dogs of that art work and those legends by crossing APBT with many different types of mastiffs (Neo,DDB, EMs were most common) to achieve that Gladiator dog look. This was before people even knew what a Cane Corso was and while they were almost extinct . Many of these breeders are still famous for the Banddog breeding prograns they created. Some are still around

This is also why some banddogs could pass for CCs.

 

[Annette Coleman]

Just wow. Most on this forum are super nice and willing to help those that reach out (as evidenced by the thoughtful responses you have already received). You don't seem to have any understanding of how breeding in general works and then you attack those who have taken the time to respond to you honestly and thoughtfully? At least that is how it reads to me. If I am wrong then I do apologize.

Btw I don't breed and I am in no way associated with the AKC but I do have a basic understanding of how these things work. I have had pet quality purebred dogs before and in every case the breeder was very honest with me about what specifically about that dog made it qualify as a pet quality and the price reflected that as well. Usually it does. My standard poodle was pet quality and I adored him. He lived a very long life with us as an extremely pampered and amazing pet. I had no interest in anything other than a great pet which is what I bought and what I got. I didn't in anyway feel robbed. I got the amazing temperament and good health that his parents had passed along to him. So what if he wasn't breeder or show quality. He was a perfect dog.

What exactly was it that you were looking for in your dog? If it was a good pet then the disqualifying features shouldn't effect you in any way. If you were looking for a show quality dog then that is what you should have purchased. The price would have corresponded to what you purchased. My standard poodle was $200 (granted this was 20 years ago) but his show quality brother was over $1000. I will admit his brother was stunning and I am sure he found the right home for him. I wanted a good companion and I got that and I still miss him everyday. Pet quality dogs are not inferior or flawed or "defective" if what you want is a pet. And you should always always ask all the questions when you get a new pet whether pure bred or not. Health issues, temperament issues are all important to know even for a pet quality dog.

As for the pure bred question only a DNA test can tell you for certain.

This was marketed as a dog being held back by the breeder for evaluation to be added to the breedingredients program. We specifically told the breeder that we needed a large dog capable of leading and supporting the weight of an adult . An experienced and reputable breeder would have known that at 5 months this dog would not meet our needs. Yet we are out $3,000 for pup, transportation documents, microchip , plus vet bills and training since the dog arrived. We paid for a quality dog, maybe not show quality, but one that ia unmistakeabky a Cane Corso.

When she arrived she had roundworms. Based on her demeanor both our vet and trainer thought that the dog had been abused. My argument is simply that if the AKC is nothing but a registry for people so that peopLe who care more about money than dogs can get more money for "pet" quality inferior dogs, then the public needs to be aware and both AKC and breeder's need to stop asserting that dogs with papers are worth more.

The problem is not that I fail to understand what the AKC is, but that I learned too late that it isn't the mark of quality that breeders suggest it is in their advertising.

I'm also concerred because this "Breeder of Merit" is known for producing dogs with epilepsy.

The fact that we love this dog and provide her a better home than she had with the breeder does not change the fact that we did not receive what we paid for. Nor the fact that the AKC which calls itself the DMV of dogs, does nothing to ensure the accuracy of the information it certifies.

Are these people trying to educate me or indoctrinate me? Remember, they are breeders and maintaining the status of the AKC puts money in their pockets. I have no way of knowing whether or not their dogs are worth more because of the care they take. I just know that AKC papers alone shouldn't make a dog worth more

 

[Annette Coleman]

I am confused, what did you think Pet Quality meant? To those that breed, it means a dog/puppy that for whatever reason the breeder doesn't think it should be bred.

It could be something as simple as the breeder was breeding to try and get better angulation and didn't get it in this puppy so placed it, either because it was too straight or over- angulated. The standard calls for moderately angulated dogs so this dog would be out of standard, does it affect it in a pet home, likely not unless it is an extreme of either of the things mentioned above. Or a dog that is perhaps an inch over standard, might not affect it in a pet home but in a show ring or as a breeding potential it might not stack up. Also it will depend on a program, I have placed dogs as pets because they didn't fit my program that others might have kept because it would have worked for theirs.

I also don't get how you say AKC lacks value in papers, they are registries... they do not determine breed quality any more than the ICCF or the UKC. All have "pet" papers or limited paperwork which is issued to pets when the breeder selects the non-breeding box.

You obviously have an ax to grind against the AKC instead of taking it up with your breeders but to be fair you bought a pet so no, I don't think anyone in any breed that is breeding purebreds is going to understand how you are upset because you bought a pet and got a pet. All dogs have faults, and pets are placed in pet homes because the breeder doesn't think they should be bred. Most breeders charge less for their pets than breeding/show dogs (not all), this is not something new, or even restricted to the breed and some charge the same across the board no matter what as all pups are raised the same way, exposed the same way to everything so they all are charge the same but the pets are on spay/neuter contracts.

And you can bet your ass I produce pets, every litter has them. They are no less loved or important to me because they are pets, I screen their homes the same way, I stay in touch with their owners (likely more than the show/breeding homes) and some even come to stay when their owners are away. When I breed I breed for myself, what I want in my program and I also get some lovely pets that I find quality homes for and those people are happy (at least I assume since no one has come back to me to say otherwise so far) and my pets are love, they are not inferior because they are pets they simply are not breed quality.

When we tried to take it up with the breeder she did nothing. She makes many of the same claims that you do about providing support, but, for her at least they are empty words.

I would like to see the public more educated so that the AKC has no influence on their decision to buy a pet. AKC is about showdogs, not producing quality dogs for everyday people. Yet, most people still believe that the AKC label indicates quality. The false advertising of disreputable breeders promotes this misconception .

 

[Nik]

I think they actually have a name for that mix, less the Boxer called a Banddog. That dog looks like he can hold his own, very strong and good looking.

This is funny because ever since we got the DNA test results my husband goes around saying our dogs are Banddogs. Personally I like referring to Diesel as my toy or pocket mastiff and Kahlua is my toy boxer. They are both so teeny compared to their parents. Diesel only 75 lbs and Kahlua just under 60 lbs now.

And Diesel is very strong but he is also a big push over. He is downright dainty and delicate with me. I think it only took him one or two times of accidentally knocking me over when he wasn't watching what he was doing before he learned to be gentle around me. He also lets Kahlua beat up on him all the time. Kahlua is just a bull dozer. She plays hard and has still not learned to not barrel into me or head butt me etc. She isn't as quick a learner as Diesel but she is more eager to please so I have no doubt she will get there. Kahlua is also strong but her agility and acrobatics are what impress me the most about her. She can jump HIGH.

 

[Steven C]

Banddog ussualy means when you cross a mastiff type dog with a bull terrier type dog...more if a generic word.

They are many differnt formulas and crosses
Many people have tried to trademark it and failed

I actually think the Cane Corso or the working Neo was the Original Banddog. Because it is an old Roman term used to describe dogs that were bound by a band (rope or chain) durring the day and released to guard property against theifs at night. Legend says the dogs instinctly knew the oweners property lines and would patrol. I find that out of all the breeds I have experienced Cane Corsos roam off the property lines the least and learn your property way faster than the other breeds I owned. Also, there are old Banddog statues and art that resemble working Neos and Cane Corsos from their homeland.

People tried to recreate the dogs of that art work and those legends by crossing APBT with many different types of mastiffs (Neo,DDB, EMs were most common) to achieve that Gladiator dog look. This was before people even knew what a Cane Corso was and while they were almost extinct . Many of these breeders are still famous for the Banddog breeding prograns they created. Some are still around

This is also why some banddogs could pass for CCs.

DDB never leave too far either imo. My DDB off leash would never go more than 30 feet away and he could cover that 30 feet in seconds. I even thought he was fast enough to drop a threat in the event of an ambush, he was kept lean and stayed fast until he hit around 8 but nowhere near the stamina of my CC. One of the great abilities of our CC is the fact they do not roam as other dogs do, which cannot be said for all mastiffs as some like the TM do roam.

 

[Nik]

This was marketed as a dog being held back by the breeder for evaluation to be added to the breedingredients program. We specifically told the breeder that we needed a large dog capable of leading and supporting the weight of an adult . An experienced and reputable breeder would have known that at 5 months this dog would not meet our needs. Yet we are out $3,000 for pup, transportation documents, microchip , plus vet bills and training since the dog arrived. We paid for a quality dog, maybe not show quality, but one that ia unmistakeabky a Cane Corso.

When she arrived she had roundworms. Based on her demeanor both our vet and trainer thought that the dog had been abused. My argument is simply that if the AKC is nothing but a registry for people so that peopLe who care more about money than dogs can get more money for "pet" quality inferior dogs, then the public needs to be aware and both AKC and breeder's need to stop asserting that dogs with papers are worth more.

The problem is not that I fail to understand what the AKC is, but that I learned too late that it isn't the mark of quality that breeders suggest it is in their advertising.

I'm also concerred because this "Breeder of Merit" is known for producing dogs with epilepsy.

The fact that we love this dog and provide her a better home than she had with the breeder does not change the fact that we did not receive what we paid for. Nor the fact that the AKC which calls itself the DMV of dogs, does nothing to ensure the accuracy of the information it certifies.

Are these people trying to educate me or indoctrinate me? Remember, they are breeders and maintaining the status of the AKC puts money in their pockets. I have no way of knowing whether or not their dogs are worth more because of the care they take. I just know that AKC papers alone shouldn't make a dog worth more

I think I understand where you are coming from. You were looking for a service dog and size, strength and demeanor are going to be the most important qualities. Having told your breeder this it would seem unethical to me if they sold you a dog that didn't meet those needs. Honestly the fact that she didn't deliver something that met your specific service dog requirements is of more concern to me then the breed or purity. The breed of your dog is an easy thing to confirm though and is a place to start. But, it doesn't sound like that is the true issue here. The real issue is that the dog you bought doesn't fit the service dog requirements you had specified to the breeder. Did you have a contract? Have you spoken to the breeder about any of this?

I don't think any of the people on this forum would be trying to indoctrinate you. Reputable breeders don't breed for the money and many lose money on it rather than gain money on it. Those that are doing it right are never going to get rich off of it. Many many years ago I bred bengal cats. And I honestly don't see how anyone who breeds correctly and for the right reasons could make any money off of breeding. You do it to improve the breed and for the love of the breed. It is hard work and when you do sell your animals your number one priority is a good home. In most cases you stay in contact with the homes you place in and they become like family. Breeders you buy from are mentors and colleagues and you are in constant contact with them as well. You show in a community of like minded individuals and you contribute to publications to help grow the knowledge base and the community. That was my experience and from what I know of the community in this forum they are those sorts of people.

The people who sell trying to get rich are not the sorts I would buy from or advise ever buying from. As for dogs with papers being worth more (financially) unfortunately I have to disagree. Papers should confirm purity of the breed (and if the breeder lied to paper non pure dogs then this is a huge violation). Papers can also give you showing rights (if your contract stipulates that) and breeding rights (if your contract stipulates that). Registries aren't going to guarantee that the breeder is a quality one though. That is something you have to research on your own and that isn't necessarily an easy task. Every time when someone asks for reputable breeders in their area most of us recommend attending shows, visiting breeders, etc. You really can't rely on taking ads at their word or just what you find on the internet.

In any case I would say registration is a baseline for getting a purebred puppy but you have to build on that with lots and lots of additional research, meetings, recommendations etc.

 

[Nik]

Steve C and Justin B - That is really interesting about the Banddogs and also about the roaming habits of your DDBs and CCs. I am not sure if mine would try to roam or not. I am super paranoid about making sure they are always on lead in public. My standard poodle was a roamer. Someone (cough cough my husband cough cough) accidentally left the gate open once and he decided to follow the mail man around for the entire day. He also had a few similar adventures when being watched by less paranoid family members (who I no longer trust to watch my dogs).

I do notice that Kahlua is pretty good about staying by me in the house. Diesel feels the need to get up every few minutes to run a patrol. He literally does regular patrols of the house when we are inside and the yard when we are outside. Kahlua just runs around like an insane thing when we are in the yard. Diesel will play with her for a little bit and then he will interrupt play with his very serious patrol sessions.

 

[Steven C]

When we tried to take it up with the breeder she did nothing. She makes many of the same claims that you do about providing support, but, for her at least they are empty words.

I would like to see the public more educated so that the AKC has no influence on their decision to buy a pet. AKC is about showdogs, not producing quality dogs for everyday people. Yet, most people still believe that the AKC label indicates quality. The false advertising of disreputable breeders promotes this misconception .

For me AKC is a start down my research path on a dog I am considering since I also have many factors involved in choosing a correct dog and believe me showing is not one of them. A history of epilepsy would have changed my decision immediately as I will likely have years of training invested. If my dog had just 1 instance of a seizure, I would immediately stop intensive training and decide to either keep the dog, return the dog or donate the dog. It would not be worth my extensive effort in IPO training on a possible seizure dog. Even more so since a real drive dog requires much different levels and techniques in training and usually makes a terrible pet for the average obedience pet owner. An example is a real drive dog doesn't want or like to get pet for more than a few seconds, while most people want to pet a dog.

In this scenario, a fault or a pet dog listed on the AKC papers would not be a total dog defect, it would be a kinked tail, a white patch or some other disqualifying nonsense but for me a pet quality dog from a reputable breeder will still have all the similarities to the others in the litter, unless there is a major genetic defect IMO.

 

[Nik]

For me AKC is a start down my research path on a dog I am considering since I also have many factors involved in choosing a correct dog and believe me showing is not one of them. A history of epilepsy would have changed my decision immediately as I will likely have years of training invested. If my dog had just 1 instance of a seizure, I would immediately stop intensive training and decide to either keep the dog, return the dog or donate the dog. It would not be worth my extensive effort in IPO training on a possible seizure dog. Even more so since a real drive dog requires much different levels and techniques in training and usually makes a terrible pet for the average obedience pet owner. An example is a real drive dog doesn't want or like to get pet for more than a few seconds, while most people want to pet a dog.

In this scenario, a fault or a pet dog listed on the AKC papers would not be a total dog defect, it would be a kinked tail, a white patch or some other disqualifying nonsense but for me a pet quality dog from a reputable breeder will still have all the similarities to the others in the litter, unless there is a major genetic defect IMO.

This has been my experience with breeders. I have never gotten a pet quality dog that deviated in a major way from the standard. It has always been some silly small thing like a color patch as you mention. In fact, it was specifically a color patch that made my Cerberus pet quality when I got him.

 

[Annette Coleman]

This has been my experience with breeders. I have never gotten a pet quality dog that deviated in a major way from the standard. It has always been some silly small thing like a color patch as you mention. In fact, it was specifically a color patch that made my Cerberus pet quality when I got him.

These are the type of flaws we expected from a "Breeder of Merit" not what we got. We don't hold it against the dog, but the humans should have known better.

 

[Annette Coleman]

DDB never leave too far either imo. My DDB off leash would never go more than 30 feet away and he could cover that 30 feet in seconds. I even thought he was fast enough to drop a threat in the event of an ambush, he was kept lean and stayed fast until he hit around 8 but nowhere near the stamina of my CC. One of the great abilities of our CC is the fact they do not roam as other dogs do, which cannot be said for all mastiffs as some like the TM do roam.

That was our experience with Xena. We would tie her for short periods while we visited my parents next door. She would escape her collar and come lie next to the back door instead of chasing the abundant wildlife on my parents farm.

 

[DennasMom]

I feel for you, Annette... it sounds like you relied on the AKC to "vet" this breeder... and they FAILED you, terribly. So, yes, you have every right to be PISSED at the AKC. I'd be right there with you.

It still could be your pup is exactly "as advertised"... but the breeder, knowing what you required, absolutely FAILED to provide you what you needed and asked for (and what, presumably, the breeder said they could deliver) - which, I can only imagine was the whole reason you did all the research you did and settled on getting a CC. I would be fuming, too.

I'm not sure if the BBB would be an appropriate place to post a complaint? If they're in business, they might have a profile with the BBB and that might get their attention. I would also file a complaint with the AKC... knowing it probably will do zilch... But if you can raise enough of a stink, maybe you can at least get some of your money back, in case you need to find another dog that will fit your required service dog profile.

Some smaller dogs are packed with muscle, so I'm hoping your pup will come through for you. Being "special" (if she was the runt) might also make her more empathetic and sensitive to her people's needs...
I am a believer in the old mantra, "you don't always get the dog you want, but you do get the dog you need." I have a feeling this one will be a diamond for you in the long run - even if you need to adopt a big ol' mutt to do the heavy lifting for you.

BTW - my mastiff weight guideline suggests that a 65lb pup at 9 months will be right around 98lbs as an adult (~3yrs old)... which is right in the CC ballpark. She might surprise you yet!!

 

[Nik]

I feel for you, Annette... it sounds like you relied on the AKC to "vet" this breeder... and they FAILED you, terribly. So, yes, you have every right to be PISSED at the AKC. I'd be right there with you.

It still could be your pup is exactly "as advertised"... but the breeder, knowing what you required, absolutely FAILED to provide you what you needed and asked for (and what, presumably, the breeder said they could deliver) - which, I can only imagine was the whole reason you did all the research you did and settled on getting a CC. I would be fuming, too.

I'm not sure if the BBB would be an appropriate place to post a complaint? If they're in business, they might have a profile with the BBB and that might get their attention. I would also file a complaint with the AKC... knowing it probably will do zilch... But if you can raise enough of a stink, maybe you can at least get some of your money back, in case you need to find another dog that will fit your required service dog profile.

Some smaller dogs are packed with muscle, so I'm hoping your pup will come through for you. Being "special" (if she was the runt) might also make her more empathetic and sensitive to her people's needs...
I am a believer in the old mantra, "you don't always get the dog you want, but you do get the dog you need." I have a feeling this one will be a diamond for you in the long run - even if you need to adopt a big ol' mutt to do the heavy lifting for you.

BTW - my mastiff weight guideline suggests that a 65lb pup at 9 months will be right around 98lbs as an adult (~3yrs old)... which is right in the CC ballpark. She might surprise you yet!!

I was actually talking to my husband about this and he also pointed out that at her age she still has a lot of growing to do. So I think DennasMom could very well be right. She could surprise you yet.