Fear (?) Agression

[sassy pants]

Long time listener - 1st time caller

Just joined so I could post. I have a puppy problem that is getting harder to deal with. I'll give bullet points to help go faster.

• Sassy (pants) is a 4.5 yr old bullmastiff red female
• she's my second mastiff (first was a male english)
• bought as a pup from a reputable breeder
• healthy puppy
• raw fed since 12 months
• crate trained
  
• removed her uterus after her first heat - left ovaries, then removed ovaries at 3 yrs
• obedience classes - did well, loved to play with other dogs in class (12 weeks - one night/week)
• Canine good citizen certificate - loved to play with dogs in class
• took her shopping at Tractor supply, Lowes, Petco and anywhere pups were allowed
• took to her to puppy friendly restaurants and she was a little angel (a drooly angel)
  
• play dates with friend's dogs - we baby sat friend's dogs and Sassy just loved to play
  
• we had an old mutt that she played well with from the time we brought her home until our old dog died (Sassy was 14 mos old)
• We bought Sassy a kitten (when Sassy was 16 mos) to help her grieve and it worked really well - they are inseparable at home

1st year of her life she had me at home all the time. Husband lost his job and I had to work. Hubby got another (not so great) job. Sassy was crated for several hours each day (not crated at night). I came home at lunch and let her out for 30 minutes. Sometimes hubby could come home in the middle of the afternoon and let her out. I felt awful keeping her crated so much. (We have had a dog stolen out of our own lot so Sassy stays inside the house.) We found an inexpensive pet sitter - came for a 1.5 hours in the middle of the day - this lasted for a year. The pet sitter died and we couldn't find another one we could afford.

I volunteered with the local Humane Society and one of the volunteers started a doggy day care. I enrolled Sassy immediately - I got a huge discount.

• Sassy looked forward to going everyday - couldn't wait to get out of the car when we arrived
• she came home and slept for 2 hours each afternoon and then was ready to play with us
• this lasted for 18 months (then we removed her ovaries)
  
• doggy day care called us 3 mos after the ovary removal one day to come get Sassy - she was attacking other dogs
• picked her up and she seemed OK - took her to the vet to check for something causing her discomfort
• took her back to doggy day care the next week - after they built a separate fenced yard for "problem" dogs to chill in
• Sassy continued to act up but could be controlled by a squirt from the hose or a loud rattle (rocks in a coke can)
• She spent lots of time in the "problem" dog yard
• After a month since she first attacked a dog, she began charging the fence when she was placed in "time-out"
• She finally tore the fence loose from the bottom fence rail and got into the next yard and attacked a dog
• This happened again the next week and we removed her from day care this past fall and have not returned her

One of the doggy day care employees comes and lets Sassy out for an hour in the middle of each day. We no longer force her to stay in the crate during the day. She hasn't soiled the house since she was a pup. Life goes on as normal - lots of socializing (mostly people) at Lowes etc. We have also hiked and camped with Sassy her whole life after she was one year old.

We were hiking in February, and came across another dog on a leash and Sassy went into hyperdrive. It was all we could do to keep her 130lbs under control - she would not obey commands. My hubby separated the fighting dogs by pulling Sassy's leash around a tree so she couldn't keep pulling us towards the other dog. We were shocked - the other dog owner was appalled.

Well this has become a regular behavior - EVERY single dog we come into contact with Sassy goes crazy - all hackles and teeth. No more play dates with old friends or babysitting friend's pooches like we've done our whole time with her. We still take her to Lowes and Tractor supply but I have to walk in first and scan the place for other dogs - if I see any, we wait until they leave. No more trips to Petco - too many dogs. We have watched our feelings and anxiety around her to be sure she is not sensing worry. We've done it so long that we don't even get emotional at all when out - we never yelled or went berserk when Sassy acted up - a big no no when trying to keep aggression down.

Here is what we've done in the last 6 weeks to try and help our pup to calm down:

• thyroid panel/blood work to be sure nothing was wrong
• MRI's on her hips/joints to be sure no pain - no problems found
• allergy tests (talk about expensive) - allergic to chicken which we already knew from observation
• hired a well reviewed doggy behaviorist to come to the house once a week (savings account almost gone) - she still comes once a week
  
• she has given us tons of training to do with interacting with her dog - walking away from the other dog, sitting facing away, walking way out of the way of the other dog - Sassy still fixates on the other dog - even when cheese is involved
• behaviorist thinks Sassy has had some sort of trauma way back at day care that has never been resolved - no one there can tell us of anything that happened that was unusual
• behaviorist has taken Sassy twice to spend a day training with my hubby at her kennel - she is OK as long as no other dog gets within 30 or so yds of her
  
• hiking has become no fun (we hike in the mountains, mostly remote trails) - I walk way ahead to be sure no other dogs on the trail

We are slowly modifying our lifestyle to stay at home most nights and weekends - the modified hiking, shopping etc we have to do to avoid other dogs is just too much. I'm exhausted typing this (you too probably from reading it).

Re-homing is the last resort.

Please help.

Sassy's momma

 

[sassy pants]

I can't spell when I'm typing so fast - sorry for spelling and grammar errors. One run on sentence error - we pulled Sassy from daycare the week after her second "jail break" and dog attack. That occurred last fall. If you read the post that'll make sense.

 

[Nik]

Did the behavior start at 3 years old? That is just about the time they reach maturity and I have heard that behavior changes can happen at that time.

You also mentioned it was after having the ovaries removed? How soon after? I am wondering if that had some major change on her hormones and if that could possibly be a contributing factor.

Hoping someone else here has some insight to help you with this. It really sounds like you are doing everything you can and willing to go the extra mile to help your pup.

 

[Hector]

What age did she not like dogs anymore and she's been this way for how many years? Whatever the reason, it is a leadership issue. You have no effective way of correcting her behavior and as Jeff Gellman says when you don't say no, you are saying yes. I recommend you find a balanced trainer that uses a prong and or e-collar and get you headed down the right path. This issue isn't hard to resolve, but first you have to find a way to let her know her behavior is not acceptable anymore. From there you work on everything - nothing in life is free concept, focus work, leash work, heel work, structured walking, basic obedience, distraction training, limit freedom, hold the dog accountable for her actions, and follow through with commands. Once all those things are in place, apply all those skills and do counter condition work around dogs, do group obedience, pack walks, and eventually off leash group socialization sessions. You don't want to care about if your dog is going to play nice with other dogs, you want calm and controlled behavior around other dogs.

 

[sassy pants]

She was 3.5yrs old when the behavior started which was about 9 or so months ago. It's only been in the last 4 months where she tolerates no other dogs. She has stopped listening to commands when she is in the zone. We have used a prong collar extensively with her when we first started leash training. I didn't mention that because so many so called progressive wanna be trainers consider them a torture device. We tried last month to use her old one and it no longer fits - she hasn't worn it since she was 2. It worked wonders for pulling and distractions until we didn't use it anymore - didn't need it.

We've been using a harness with a martingale pull on the chest for years and it used to just take a tug for correction - it still does unless we meet another dog. It's odd how she doesn't react to certain things but does others. Today we were hiking in the national forest - in a wilderness area off trail (on an abandoned trail) and we came across a black bear. We often encounter them when we hike in the spring and summer. It was a good sized sow - we just watched as she walked across the trail about 25yds in front of us. It stopped to sniff at us, we stopped to look at her. Sassy just stood there and then took a heel by command and waited patiently until we continued walking. Sassy sniffed where the bear crossed the trail but made no effort to pursue. She never pulled on her leash - which is what I expect.

Last night we saw a new behavior to add to the list of things. A thunderstorm blew though and Sassy hid in the closet when it thundered - her teeth chattered. That has never happened before. We've been tent camping and had all night storms with wind and thunder almost blow our tent away and she was good to just lay at our feet. Ive never seen her so pitiful as last night - tail tucked and trembling.

We ordered a new prong for her 2weeks ago - our dealer is waiting on parts from Germany.

 

[Vantage]

• hired a well reviewed doggy behaviorist to come to the house once a week (savings account almost gone) - she still comes once a week
  
• she has given us tons of training to do with interacting with her dog - walking away from the other dog, sitting facing away, walking way out of the way of the other dog - Sassy still fixates on the other dog - even when cheese is involved
• behaviorist thinks Sassy has had some sort of trauma way back at day care that has never been resolved - no one there can tell us of anything that happened that was unusual

How long has this behaviourist been working with you? If it has been a while and no progress has been seen you may want to find someone else - I would look into a Trainer who has a history of dealing with aggressive dogs (for fear or dominance based aggression).

Regardless of what the behaviourist believes to conjure up about the dogs past, it should not hinder the dogs ability to be in a calm state of mind in the present. That was then and this is now, dogs live in the moment (to a certain extent).. If you take a dog that's been abused all it's life of course it will display certain related symptoms, however that does not mean they can't overcome them.

Just do what hector said, as long as you put in the work you will turn things around.

 

[sassy pants]

Gotta be quick on those edits huh!?

It was about 6 months after her ovaries were removed that the behavior started to present.

As I mentioned...we've been working with a behaviorist for only 6 weeks.

 

[Vantage]

In a tent she has nowhere else to go, whereas at home she found a cornered/isolated space. It is important Not to try to cheer her up or praise her or baby talk her when she is exhibiting these behaviours or it will only encourage the fear more. This seems like another problem you would have to work on separately. (possibly through playing music of thunderstorms, or maybe going out in them here and there and then doing something the dog really, really likes when the thunder strikes/it gets loud.)

 

[sassy pants]

For thunder, she's never tried to hide before - at home or anywhere else. We never react to console her for fear of reinforcing the bad behavior - huge no no.

Playing recorded thunderstorms sounds interesting - may try that.

 

[Vantage]

Mhm, it's best if you have a surround sound system, or something with bass as it makes it more realistic. Some dogs know... they just know you're playing them ahaha. Also remember their hearing is much more sensitive than us, so start at a low volume and see how she reacts to it.

 

[Hector]

For thunder, she's never tried to hide before - at home or anywhere else. We never react to console her for fear of reinforcing the bad behavior - huge no no.

Playing recorded thunderstorms sounds interesting - may try that.

Thunderstorms are something else. I knew of a dog that was not afraid of much, but was deathly afraid of storms. I took her in for the last 4 years of her life. She was an outside dog for most of her life, when storms hit (thunder and lightning), she'd chew on the door trim and door to get inside. She would not stop. Someone would wake up and find the damage lol. One night at my house she was in the back room sleeping in her crate, storm hit and she chewed open a bag of concrete and chewed most of the trim off that room and drywall and wood lol...Every time there was a storm starting, we'd get the dog and let her sleep in our room. She would pace and pant uncontrollably. She wanted a place to hide, but couldn't feel safe. I'd hold her sometimes to calm her and wait for the worse of the storm to pass. Sometimes that is what they need, some emotional support to get them through it. Comforting them does not encourage or feed into their fears. This dog was never babied, but I felt bad and had to do something so I could get some sleep. It worked for us. Dogs have phobias too. Sometimes there is no answer as to why. Maybe they get older and just feel afraid for whatever reason. Our job is to make them feel safe, offer them a dark, well protected space, or just let them spend some time laying next to you. Luckily, I don't have dogs that are afraid of fireworks.

I don't know about the idea of playing thunderstorms. Usually storms come with elements that you cannot replicate like the strong vibrations in the air, frequent loud godly thunder, strong winds, heavy rains, and bright flashes. They feel the vibration in the ground and all around them. There is a new product called the thunder blanket. Might not be a bad idea.

 

[Hector]

Go back and revisit and drill all the basics. Working around distractions is a huge one. Make sure her basics are solid around distractions. Vary the training to make it interesting and do tons of reps. Once you start the counter conditioning process, try to use very high food rewards as motivation and to reinforce the behaviors you want. Keep us posted.

 

[Boxergirl]

We never react to console her for fear of reinforcing the bad behavior - huge no no.

I disagree. I have a dog with noise phobia. Comforting her does not make her more afraid. The fear is not bad behavior - it's something she can't control. I decided to get medication for my Ella last year for her thunder and fireworks phobia and it was the best thing I ever did. She's still afraid, but not incapacitated. She prefers to be in an enclosed area, so we keep a "safe room" set up for her in my closet that she can go to at any time. Two days ago she was in there long before I had any idea that a storm was coming, so I suspect it must have been a change in barometric pressure that she sensed.

Here are a couple of links for that you may find helpful.

https://eileenanddogs.com/cant-reinforce-fear/
http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...14/02/14/dog-maladaptive-stress-response.aspx

 

[marke]

I agree with Hector , teach the dog to obey under distraction , and correct to whatever level it takes ...... that is a behavior that could eventually cost that dog it's life ........ it's odd for a 3 yr old dog to suddenly become afraid of thunderstorms without some type of traumatic experience ........ training under distraction may help in distracting the dog from the thunderstorm ........ probably wouldn't work for most folks , but I've acquired a couple adult dogs at different times that were extremely afraid of thunderstorms , I just locked them in the same room with access to the outside with 4-5 dogs that could care less about a thunderstorm or their neurotic fears , they would just ignore them , laying there sleeping through it while the scared ones were running around like nuts , eventually they get tired of panting and pacing , apparently seeing the other dogs weren't afraid they'd settle down ......... neither one ever became as comfortable as the dogs I raised , but they weren't nuts anymore and could sleep during a thunderstorm ...... they both eventually moved out and it did continue to work when they weren't here ...... personally I think interacting with the dog when they're scared is not a bad thing , actually a necessary thing , as long as you act correctly during the interaction , acting badly , going out of your way to comfort the dog ...... just act normal , so your dog sees your comfortable ....... obviously letting them hide under the bed and ignoring them won't solve the problem ...... don't give them access to hide , and act normal ......

 

[DennasMom]

Well, either her hormones flipped a switch, or she had an unresolved issue happen at daycare... I'd vote for #2 as the more likely. Something happened and humans did not resolve the issue properly, she was punished for taking a beating and has decided to get ahead of the issue by keeping all other dogs either far away or pushed onto the defensive.

I agree with going back to Step 1 - obedience training. Get that prong back on and don't let her get away with ANYTHING for a few weeks until you know she's listening and remembering her manners. Then take her out for working with/around distractions - make sure you catch her 'alert' to triggers WELL before she decides to act on them. Redirect with a command (sit / wait) and reward then move AWAY from the trigger. Let her know you HEAR her when she 'alerts' and that YOU will make the 'bad thing' go away (by removing HER from that situation).

First - Take her to fun places with distractions - people parks with lots of new smells, strip malls, garden centers... places that are new and different but NOT full of strange dogs. Remind her of all those good CGC habits she used to know. Maybe even re-enroll in a CGC refresher class... but you might do that after the next item, below (focus around strange dogs), so the CGC trainer doesn't toss you out of the class. :/

Go to a dog park but stay in the far end of the parking lot. Work there on commands until she ignores the presence of other dogs in the area... move slowly (over a few days or weeks) closer to where the dogs are playing, but do NOT go in the park or subject her to being approached by off-leash or out-of-control strange dogs. Your goal is to get her to focus on YOU and ignore strange dogs. I don't think she'll ever be interested in socializing with other dogs anymore, which is sad... but not uncommon, especially for mastiff breeds.

I think working on her confidence and commands will help with the thunderstorm issue, too... somewhere she's lost faith in herself and the fairness of life and is unsure how to act, and that has all led her to fear the unknown...

Have there been any other changes in her life? Even a small one - like a different person letting her out for her mid-day break - might be adding to her anxiety.

Be patient with her, but let her know what she's doing is not acceptable... and also let her know what you DO want her to do instead. Consistency and repetitions, and she hopefully will settle back in to her good doggie self again. Keep us posted!!