A Very Controversial Topic....

[Hiraeth]

Answer. I would teach him when he was a puppy that eating walls is not ok nor fun, also i would have done it without crate as i did with all my dogs.

That's laughable. First of all, I haven't had Zeph since he was a puppy, I rescued him at 7 months of age. Second of all, the idea that you can teach a determined and destructive chewer to NOT be a determined and destructive chewer when humans aren't around shows your inexperience with that type of dog. There's no teaching a dog who has learned that chewing is fun to not chew.

I'm not a 'crate for the sake of crating' person. Titan has free roam of the house, and has had that since 10 months of age, because he's not a chewer. I provide freedom for my dogs as soon as I am capable (and I also drive home from work on my lunch to let my crated dog out, which adds an HOUR of commute to my day).

Maybe the anti-crater sorts have never had a dog where it was a real issue.

I think that is *exactly* the situation that is occurring on this thread. Until they have a dog who is literally eat-through-the-wall destructive, they will have no idea what it's like, and will continue to make blanket statements and generalizations and ridiculous claims that destructive chewing is somehow a thing that can be trained away.

Zeph gets 2 leashed walks and one 30-40 minute off leash run a day, as well as 5-6 training sessions. So he's not understimulated or underexercised by ANY means. He found out that chewing was fun because his former family did not crate him as a puppy. Had he been crated from a young age and never been given the opportunity to figure out that ripping up carpet and eating walls was a good time, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be having this problem now.

But NOT being properly crated and supervised, along with being ignored, bored, underexercised and understimulated, is what caused Zephyr's issues (which extend far past destructive chewing).

 

[Nik]

kingmark - Yes puppyhood is when we train and I spend a lot of time training my dogs. But, as Boxergirl says the crate is a training tool as well. And what if you have a dog that is smart enough to learn that you don't want them to do those behaviors but if you aren't there to watch them you can't stop them? All my dogs are smart enough to know that. If you have a training method that teaches them not to do it whether you are there or not then I would love to hear it. I have yet to discover a way around that one.

 

[marke]

How would you do that if you had to work a full day and had nobody to watch your destructive puppy? Would your dog have free run of the house? Would you put him in a safe room? I'm asking a serious question and I really would like to hear an expansive answer. If you have a dog that is destructive, that can't be taught away in one day.

a gated off dog safe room , dog door and a secure outside area .............

 

[marke]

That's laughable. First of all, I haven't had Zeph since he was a puppy, I rescued him at 7 months of age. Second of all, the idea that you can teach a determined and destructive chewer to NOT be a determined and destructive chewer when humans aren't around shows your inexperience with that type of dog. There's no teaching a dog who has learned that chewing is fun to not chew.

I'm not a 'crate for the sake of crating' person. Titan has free roam of the house, and has had that since 10 months of age, because he's not a chewer. I provide .

7 months is nothing but a puppy , it's been my experience given the opportunity , boredom and lack of correction most would end up destructive chewers ...... when I grew up no one crated their puppies , they locked them in the kitchen when they couldn't watch them ..... I never noticed everybody having chewed up houses , or dead puppies .......

 

[Boxergirl]

a gated off dog safe room , dog door and a secure outside area .............

Yes, that's what I did with Al. He couldn't be crated so I gave him a safe room. Really though - it's just another form of containment. Not really so different from a crate. The other wasn't an option for me. I don't allow my dogs access outside the house when I'm not home. They'd be stolen.

 

[Nik]

That's laughable. First of all, I haven't had Zeph since he was a puppy, I rescued him at 7 months of age. Second of all, the idea that you can teach a determined and destructive chewer to NOT be a determined and destructive chewer when humans aren't around shows your inexperience with that type of dog. There's no teaching a dog who has learned that chewing is fun to not chew.

I'm not a 'crate for the sake of crating' person. Titan has free roam of the house, and has had that since 10 months of age, because he's not a chewer. I provide freedom for my dogs as soon as I am capable (and I also drive home from work on my lunch to let my crated dog out, which adds an HOUR of commute to my day).



I think that is *exactly* the situation that is occurring on this thread. Until they have a dog who is literally eat-through-the-wall destructive, they will have no idea what it's like, and will continue to make blanket statements and generalizations and ridiculous claims that destructive chewing is somehow a thing that can be trained away.

Zeph gets 2 leashed walks and one 30-40 minute off leash run a day, as well as 5-6 training sessions. So he's not understimulated or underexercised by ANY means. He found out that chewing was fun because his former family did not crate him as a puppy. Had he been crated from a young age and never been given the opportunity to figure out that ripping up carpet and eating walls was a good time, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be having this problem now.

But NOT being properly crated and supervised, along with being ignored, bored, underexercised and understimulated, is what caused Zephyr's issues (which extend far past destructive chewing).

Hiraeth - I am not really sure that it makes a difference as to whether you start crate training early or not or rather I think it does in some cases but maybe not in all cases. Kahlua has been crate trained since day one and she still likes to chew because she is convinced that everything on this planet is meant to be eaten so she works to find ways to break pieces off things that are small enough to swallow. I have hope that she will grow out of it with the help of training but until I know she won't do it I take my precautions.

 

[Nik]

Anti crater sorts? Omg where did you come up with that word? Wasnt dogs childhod the time when you teach him what is ok what not?

lol I came up with it in the moment as a simplifying descriptor. Not meant in a derogatory way at all. I get the cultural differences. But, to me it is no different then parents who are "anti punishment" when raising children and believe me I know some who say that even time out is unacceptable because it makes kids antisocial. And it is no different then the other sorts of people who say all children should be spanked. I've said it before and I stand by it. There is no one size fits all answer when it comes to training (whether we are talking dogs or human kids).

 

[Nik]

a gated off dog safe room , dog door and a secure outside area .............

And that is what I do with Diesel minus the outside part because I don't feel it is safe for him to be outside when I am not home for various reasons.
But, if Diesel chews up the walls in the kitchen (which he used to but has since gotten over) I know it will be a contained destruction and I know he won't eat it. He is not a swallower.

Kahlua is entirely different she swallows and she can climb and jump her way out of any containment and that makes all the difference in their training methods.

 

[marke]

Yes, that's what I did with Al. He couldn't be crated so I gave him a safe room. Really though - it's just another form of containment. Not really so different from a crate. The other wasn't an option for me. I don't allow my dogs access outside the house when I'm not home. They'd be stolen.

I've fenced in a back porch before , the gate to the porch pen was padlocked as all the pens are here now , breaking into the pens is no easier than my breaking in my house ........... nowadays surveillance cameras are cheap , and their momma is never too far ...........you give a pup or dog access to the outdoors , even if it's a tiny area , something to chew on and they never get bored ........ my way of keeping them is not for everyone , I have many friends who crate their dogs ......

 

[marke]

And that is what I do with Diesel minus the outside part because I don't feel it is safe for him to be outside when I am not home for various reasons.
But, if Diesel chews up the walls in the kitchen (which he used to but has since gotten over) I know it will be a contained destruction and I know he won't eat it. He is not a swallower.

Kahlua is entirely different she swallows and she can climb and jump her way out of any containment and that makes all the difference in their training methods.

like I said my method isn't for everyone , but Kahlua is containable , they all are .... some are just more expensive to contain than others ........

 

[Hector]

The gsd I brought in doesn't do well in the 8x12 wooden kennel I have outside. She barks, is anxious, tries to dig out, scratches the skin off of her nose trying to find a way out. In a crate she's quiet, calm, and rests. I don't know her history of crating, but she seems to take it with no problems. The junk room is the best place for her. She's isolated from everyone and it's quiet and warm. She is flea infested and very dog reactive.

 

[lexinrose]

Alot of people in European countries also believe that a dogs place is in the backyard all day until they get home. Dogs aren't passified as much as we do here in the USA. Like laying in bed with us laying in the couch. Things like that with big dogs

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[lexinrose]

I think that none of us that have crates love to see the big ugly thing sitting in a corner of the room. I wish my dog didn't have to be crated but it is what it is. I can't wait for the day that I can get rid of it and put something nice in its place like a dining room table or a hutch anything will make the home look better. But until that time it is what it is.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[kingmark]

That's laughable. First of all, I haven't had Zeph since he was a puppy, I rescued him at 7 months of age. Second of all, the idea that you can teach a determined and destructive chewer to NOT be a determined and destructive chewer when humans aren't around shows your inexperience with that type of dog. There's no teaching a dog who has learned that chewing is fun to not chew.

I'm not a 'crate for the sake of crating' person. Titan has free roam of the house, and has had that since 10 months of age, because he's not a chewer. I provide freedom for my dogs as soon as I am capable (and I also drive home from work on my lunch to let my crated dog out, which adds an HOUR of commute to my day).



I think that is *exactly* the situation that is occurring on this thread. Until they have a dog who is literally eat-through-the-wall destructive, they will have no idea what it's like, and will continue to make blanket statements and generalizations and ridiculous claims that destructive chewing is somehow a thing that can be trained away.

Zeph gets 2 leashed walks and one 30-40 minute off leash run a day, as well as 5-6 training sessions. So he's not understimulated or underexercised by ANY means. He found out that chewing was fun because his former family did not crate him as a puppy. Had he been crated from a young age and never been given the opportunity to figure out that ripping up carpet and eating walls was a good time, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be having this problem now.

But NOT being properly crated and supervised, along with being ignored, bored, underexercised and understimulated, is what caused Zephyr's issues (which extend far past destructive chewing).

I didnt know you had him when he was 7 months old so who knows what bad habbits does he have because no one ever corrected him or did not care. So if you have to crate him its your choice i am not judging anyone who crates their dogs, but i can judge does who dont want to understand us "anti crater sort" and dont respect our opinions. I am not telling you that you should not crate your dog because of xy reasons , so therefore you shouldnt tell me that i have failed my dog or i dont know with dogs just because i dont crate my dog nor ever would.

 

[kingmark]

Alot of people in European countries also believe that a dogs place is in the backyard all day until they get home. Dogs aren't passified as much as we do here in the USA. Like laying in bed with us laying in the couch. Things like that with big dogs

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

In every country in the world you have people who think that dogs place is outside all the time. I you want to be precise i did see a lot more animal neglect if i can say so ,in the american movies and society especially then in my country. My last two dogs were sleeping in the house with me, i didnt let them in the bed becuse they were dominant males and it didnt work, but my almost 5 months old little girl sleeps with me and my fiance in the bed all the time what can i say , i am guilty.

 

[Boxergirl]

Anti crater sorts was funny, geez. Not meant as an insult.

Kingmark, what movies are you watching? If you're watching American movies and basing treatment of animals on that I'd advise you to stop doing it. Movies are fiction, most of them anyway. I don't believe the US is more cruel to their animals than other countries and I think we may have more people fighting for their rights than many other places. I also haven't seen any of us that use a crate judging those of you that don't. I think it's been just the opposite. We are just explaining why we crate and being told that it's cruel and it's been insinuated that we're unenlightened for caging our dogs.

You're still taking the "failed" your dog remark out of context as well. She said that if you have a dog that freaks out from being crated at the vet then you (generic you) may have let your dog down because you didn't introduce them to a thing that there was a distinct possibility they would have to use and it causes them to panic. She didn't say YOU failed your dog. Me? I try to introduce my dog to everything they may come in contact with so they are prepared and not subject to undue anxiety. I consider a crate, or confinement of some sort, to be something they should be introduced to just as a matter of life training.

And I really would like an answer to how you would stop a destructive puppy/dog from putting itself in danger when you aren't home. Maybe you've never had a destructive puppy or an anxious adult. If that's the case then great for you. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying that you've never had experience with dogs like this. Nothing at all. We'll all be thrilled for you. My Ella never *had* to be crated and liked it from day one, so her door was never closed. No big deal. Then you had Al who has generalized anxiety and tried to claw his way out of the house and break through windows. If you were presented with a dog like that, or like Hiraeth's Zephyr, or Nik's Kahlua - dogs that are a danger to themselves, what would you do? I really would like to know. Teaching them isn't a very descriptive answer. We're all teaching our dogs. We're not just plunking them in a crate and saying we quit. We're all here to learn from each other. I would really like to hear what your methods would be.

I also wanted to clear up something that seems to be getting missed. We crate until we no longer have to. Like I said above - Ella was introduced to a crate. Accepted it readily. She was never destructive so her door was left open from six weeks on (she came as a very young foster). Just because I have a house full of crates doesn't mean my dogs are all locked up all the time. The crates are their "rooms" where they can go for a nap and be left alone. They like them and the doors are either open or off. My dogs sleep in the bed with me too. And sometimes they get up and sleep in their crates. With the doors open.

 

[Boxergirl]

The gsd I brought in doesn't do well in the 8x12 wooden kennel I have outside. She barks, is anxious, tries to dig out, scratches the skin off of her nose trying to find a way out. In a crate she's quiet, calm, and rests. I don't know her history of crating, but she seems to take it with no problems. The junk room is the best place for her. She's isolated from everyone and it's quiet and warm. She is flea infested and very dog reactive.

Most of my fosters did seem to find comfort in their crates and most of them liked them covered. She still looks confused and unsure. It's hard to have a reactive foster when you have a house full of other animals. You've got your hands full. Wishing you lots of luck with her.

 

[kingmark]

Anti crater sorts was funny, geez. Not meant as an insult.

Kingmark, what movies are you watching? If you're watching American movies and basing treatment of animals on that I'd advise you to stop doing it. Movies are fiction, most of them anyway. I don't believe the US is more cruel to their animals than other countries and I think we may have more people fighting for their rights than many other places. I also haven't seen any of us that use a crate judging those of you that don't. I think it's been just the opposite. We are just explaining why we crate and being told that it's cruel and it's been insinuated that we're unenlightened for caging our dogs.

You're still taking the "failed" your dog remark out of context as well. She said that if you have a dog that freaks out from being crated at the vet then you (generic you) may have let your dog down because you didn't introduce them to a thing that there was a distinct possibility they would have to use and it causes them to panic. She didn't say YOU failed your dog. Me? I try to introduce my dog to everything they may come in contact with so they are prepared and not subject to undue anxiety. I consider a crate, or confinement of some sort, to be something they should be introduced to just as a matter of life training.

And I really would like an answer to how you would stop a destructive puppy/dog from putting itself in danger when you aren't home. Maybe you've never had a destructive puppy or an anxious adult. If that's the case then great for you. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying that you've never had experience with dogs like this. Nothing at all. We'll all be thrilled for you. My Ella never *had* to be crated and liked it from day one, so her door was never closed. No big deal. Then you had Al who has generalized anxiety and tried to claw his way out of the house and break through windows. If you were presented with a dog like that, or like Hiraeth's Zephyr, or Nik's Kahlua - dogs that are a danger to themselves, what would you do? I really would like to know. Teaching them isn't a very descriptive answer. We're all teaching our dogs. We're not just plunking them in a crate and saying we quit. We're all here to learn from each other. I would really like to hear what your methods would be.

I also wanted to clear up something that seems to be getting missed. We crate until we no longer have to. Like I said above - Ella was introduced to a crate. Accepted it readily. She was never destructive so her door was left open from six weeks on (she came as a very young foster). Just because I have a house full of crates doesn't mean my dogs are all locked up all the time. The crates are their "rooms" where they can go for a nap and be left alone. They like them and the doors are either open or off. My dogs sleep in the bed with me too. And sometimes they get up and sleep in their crates. With the doors open.

I dont know what would i do with dog that has issues like that and which are not caused by my bad raising or neglect. I never had a dog which issues if he had them couldnt be solved. So i would never take older dog any kind only if i am saving his life with that and then i would also reconsider it because i dont want a dog who i dont trust completely or he doesnt trust me, and not to say that could be very dangerous. So did you understanded me now?

 

[marke]

The gsd I brought in doesn't do well in the 8x12 wooden kennel I have outside. She barks, is anxious, tries to dig out, scratches the skin off of her nose trying to find a way out. In a crate she's quiet, calm, and rests. I don't know her history of crating, but she seems to take it with no problems. The junk room is the best place for her. She's isolated from everyone and it's quiet and warm. She is flea infested and very dog reactive.

she appears to be a physical wreck as well , imo , that dog would do best and recover better acclimated to and then kept in a large secure yard ....she looks like she's spent her entire life in a crate , sad to see ...... one of the biggest reasons I don't use crates for my pups and dogs is I want them moving ......... ddb as a breed have a pretty high incidence of hip dysplasia , being confined to a small area for excessive amounts of time leads to dogs in the physical condition of this german shepherd , that type of physical condition in a large heavy breed with hd is a death sentence ............ have you tried putting the crate in the outside kennel for her ? you could just do it while your home for short periods of time , just like teaching a pup to be alone ......

 

[Boxergirl]

I dont know what would i do with dog that has issues like that and which are not caused by my bad raising or neglect. I never had a dog which issues if he had them couldnt be solved. So i would never take older dog any kind only if i am saving his life with that and then i would also reconsider it because i dont want a dog who i dont trust completely or he doesnt trust me, and not to say that could be very dangerous. So did you understanded me now?

I had thought to have a constructive discussion. I'm unsure why you chose to ask a passive aggressive and rude question. Perhaps that wasn't your intent. "Sadly, accidental rudeness occurs alarmingly often." - Professor Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Half Blood-Prince

And you asked if I understood you now.

"Yes ... blessed as I am with extraordinary brainpower, I understood everything you told me. I think you might even consider the possibility that I understood more than you did." - Professor Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince

This was supposed to be amusing, btw. I'm listening to a HP audiobook while I sew a service dog bandana and vest. Anyway, thank you for expanding upon your original answer. I do think we can all learn from other perspectives as long as we all remain respectful and polite.