Question Regarding Breeder Contracts

[CeeCee]

Hi All,

I was talking with a friend of mine who recently adopted a dog from a local rescue and she was telling me some of the conditions that were in the adoption contact. For example, her rescue made her promise not to use a retractable leash or an invisible fence.

I know of other local rescues who tell you what training tools you can and cannot use and whether or not you can let your dog off leash or that you must have a fence and what height fit must be.

Do the breeders y'all have worked with have such things in their contacts?

 

[TylerDurden]

Hi All,

I was talking with a friend of mine who recently adopted a dog from a local rescue and she was telling me some of the conditions that were in the adoption contact. For example, her rescue made her promise not to use a retractable leash or an invisible fence.

I know of other local rescues who tell you what training tools you can and cannot use and whether or not you can let your dog off leash or that you must have a fence and what height fit must be.

Do the breeders y'all have worked with have such things in their contacts?

"Terms and Conditions" are very common when it comes to contracts with breeders (e.g. no breeding rights, spay/neuter by x date etc.). I haven‘t come accross any restrictions/limitations with regard to leash or collar use. However, I‘m sure some breeders do include paragraphs on that. I know for a fact that some breeders do only sell dogs to people that have a yard, no small children in the household and things like that. I‘m not a lawyer but I assume that the owner takes over full liability with the purchase. Regardless, some of the items in the contract are hard to verify/control, especially if the breeder isn‘t anywhere close to the new owner. I personally wouldn‘t want to be told what materials to use or how to train my dog, but certain paragraphs do make sense in my opinion.

 

[April Nicole]

The breeder we got our Alabai pup from sent over an application before allowing us to put a deposit. He did ask what type of fencing we had, and what type of training we would use. But, nothing invasive, or controlling. He also wanted to know what purpose we had for the dog. I think he is responsible and doesn't want to sell his dogs to people who have no clue what they are getting into....

I do think the rescue folks kind of overdo the micro managing. It's hard enough to convince them you will give the dog a good home. They are very thorough with choosing homes for the dogs, which is good. Wish the screening for foster children were that thorough! I think telling people what type of leashes they can use is somewhat crazy. I said in another post that we tried to get a Rhodesian Ridge back from a rescue. We had experience having owned 2. We had secure fencing. We met all of the requirements. I'm surprised they didn't ask for blood samples. It was invasive and time consuming. We ended up not getting him, and adopted our EM mix . It's almost as if they want to turn you down. The issue they had with us, is we had young kids. But the Rhodesian was a puppy, so being with kids supervised shouldn't have been a problem. But my goodness, by the time we would have finally received him, he would have no longer been a puppy. I'm not trying to say rescues are bad. I think they are great, and really care for the dogs. They just take things a little too far.

 

[Boxergirl]

The breeder we got our Alabai pup from sent over an application before allowing us to put a deposit. He did ask what type of fencing we had, and what type of training we would use. But, nothing invasive, or controlling. He also wanted to know what purpose we had for the dog. I think he is responsible and doesn't want to sell his dogs to people who have no clue what they are getting into....

I do think the rescue folks kind of overdo the micro managing. It's hard enough to convince them you will give the dog a good home. They are very thorough with choosing homes for the dogs, which is good. Wish the screening for foster children were that thorough! I think telling people what type of leashes they can use is somewhat crazy. I said in another post that we tried to get a Rhodesian Ridge back from a rescue. We had experience having owned 2. We had secure fencing. We met all of the requirements. I'm surprised they didn't ask for blood samples. It was invasive and time consuming. We ended up not getting him, and adopted our EM mix . It's almost as if they want to turn you down. The issue they had with us, is we had young kids. But the Rhodesian was a puppy, so being with kids supervised shouldn't have been a problem. But my goodness, by the time we would have finally received him, he would have no longer been a puppy. I'm not trying to say rescues are bad. I think they are great, and really care for the dogs. They just take things a little too far.

My breeder contracts have always been very fair, imo. As for rescue ... well, some of them definitely tend to go overboard just a bit. I was a foster for the special needs dogs that came in, both health and behavioral. My application for one of my foster dogs was rejected because I didn't have my old girl, who had health issues, fully vaccinated. It didn't matter that my vet signed off on it. Seemed pretty ridiculous that I could foster and not adopt. I completely understand rescue organizations being very careful, but sometimes I do feel that they do the dogs a disservice by being too strict.

 

[CeeCee]

Thank you all. I would still love hear from more people if they've had any other experiences.

I have to agree that I think telling people what tools, techniques, living conditions they must have, etc. is a a little well, naive, at best, and shooting yourself and your dogs in the foot at worst.

I've been in the sheltering world for 6 years now and my Gawd, if you even think of going to a breeder (in our local shelter/rescue world) booooy you better buckle up because people are gonna call you all sorts of horrible names and condemn you 12 ways to Sunday. Yet, they choose to restrict and deny rather than educate and support. Drives me batty.

When I was looking for my next puppy, I reached out to a Great Dane rescue and upon hearing that I already have a female in the house, they would not adopt another female to me. (At the time, Lila was 8 and I was looking for a female under one year old.) She asked me no questions about my dog experience, my ability to observe, manage, train, my support network, etc. Just denied me.

So the next time, I want a specific breed, they have left me with no other option than to go to a breeder.

BTW, I have not problem number one and nothing but MAD RESPECT for the blood, sweat, tears, and money that dedicated breeders give to their breeds.

 

[sjdavenport]

My younger cane corso came with a pretty intense contract, but I think all stipulations are really pretty reasonable.

They include:
Must be fed a food approved by breeder.
Spay no earlier than 12mon and no later than 24mon (or as discussed between owner and breeder).
Complete puppy kindergarten by 5 mon and basic obedience class by 1yr.
Send photos and answer a set of questions at 1yr and at 2yrs.
Keep puppy/dog at ideal body weight (according to vet records)
Cannot be given any supplements as a puppy unless approved by breeder
Must have OFA quality hip and elbow radiographs taken and sent to breeder between 12 and 24mon

Those are the major ones that come to mind.

 

[April Nicole]

My younger cane corso came with a pretty intense contract, but I think all stipulations are really pretty reasonable.

They include:
Must be fed a food approved by breeder.
Spay no earlier than 12mon and no later than 24mon (or as discussed between owner and breeder).
Complete puppy kindergarten by 5 mon and basic obedience class by 1yr.
Send photos and answer a set of questions at 1yr and at 2yrs.
Keep puppy/dog at ideal body weight (according to vet records)
Cannot be given any supplements as a puppy unless approved by breeder
Must have OFA quality hip and elbow radiographs taken and sent to breeder between 12 and 24mon

Those are the major ones that come to mind.

That is intense. Is the contract for breeding/ show rights?

 

[Boxergirl]

My younger cane corso came with a pretty intense contract, but I think all stipulations are really pretty reasonable.

They include:
Must be fed a food approved by breeder.
Spay no earlier than 12mon and no later than 24mon (or as discussed between owner and breeder).
Complete puppy kindergarten by 5 mon and basic obedience class by 1yr.
Send photos and answer a set of questions at 1yr and at 2yrs.
Keep puppy/dog at ideal body weight (according to vet records)
Cannot be given any supplements as a puppy unless approved by breeder
Must have OFA quality hip and elbow radiographs taken and sent to breeder between 12 and 24mon

Those are the major ones that come to mind.

The only one I might have a problem with is feeding a food approved by the breeder. Maybe the breeder thinks crap food is good, lol. I think the rest is pretty reasonable. The body weight one is new to me though.

 

[TylerDurden]

My younger cane corso came with a pretty intense contract, but I think all stipulations are really pretty reasonable.

They include:
Must be fed a food approved by breeder.
Spay no earlier than 12mon and no later than 24mon (or as discussed between owner and breeder).
Complete puppy kindergarten by 5 mon and basic obedience class by 1yr.
Send photos and answer a set of questions at 1yr and at 2yrs.
Keep puppy/dog at ideal body weight (according to vet records)
Cannot be given any supplements as a puppy unless approved by breeder
Must have OFA quality hip and elbow radiographs taken and sent to breeder between 12 and 24mon

Those are the major ones that come to mind.

I think that‘s very reasonable too. It might be a lot to ask for some people, but I understand the breeder‘s interest in hips/elbows and other health related info as it tells them a lot about his future breedings. Most of the things such as feeding high quality food, maintaining a healthy body condition should be expected of responsible owners anyway.
As April asked, is this a requirement for show quality puppies, or pet quality as well?

 

[TylerDurden]

The only one I might have a problem with is feeding a food approved by the breeder. Maybe the breeder thinks crap food is good, lol. I think the rest is pretty reasonable. The body weight one is new to me though.

That‘s a good point. I wouldn‘t be surprised to see a more general requirement such as "premium/high quality food". Considering how detailed his other requirements are, I wouldn‘t expect him to feed crap food, but that doesn‘t mean potential buyers will agree. Again, how would a breeder even enforce this? There is no way for them to check what the future owner is going to feed.

 

[sjdavenport]

My girl is a working prospect, but not intended for breeding (I know that is not the usual circumstance, but I wanted a dog with the drive to participate in sports, but am not interested in breeding or showing). So I believe that my particular contract was her standard pet quality contract with a few alterations. None of it was a surprise or sprung on me when I picked Dany up. She sent me a draft of the contract over a month in advance, and we discussed everything in detail. She was happy to adjust it to fit us. For example, she did list certain foods that she recommends and approves, but I feed my adult dogs a homemade food with some commercial raw. We discussed it, and she added it into my contract that she approves that. I also PennHIP tested Dany at 4 months, and won't do OFA hips and elbows until she is over 24months (rather than between 12 and 24mon) so it can be official rather than preliminary in the database. She made those alterations to the contract. Through the entire process, I never found her to be unreasonable.

As far as enforcing it, that's always the tough part. She has little ways of encouraging her buyers stick to it though. She withholds registration papers until you send her proof that you've completed puppy class. In order for her to honor her health guarantee with a replacement puppy if yours develops symptomatic orthopedic disease, you need to follow her requirements as I listed before (keep a good body condition, no free feeding, feed an appropriate food (proof via receipts), no forced exercise, do the hip and elbow rads, spay at the appropriate age, etc). She's really involved with her puppies, so pretty much keeps track of what's going on with them. She has a private Facebook group for her puppy families. She has come to visit Dany since we've gotten her. She has also flown to California to visit one of the other puppies from the litter. She just got back from driving halfway across the country to visit with a dog from a previous litter.

Of course, not everyone wants a puppy that comes attached to such an involved breeder, but I think she's fantastic. I would (and will) purchase a puppy from her again with no hesitation.

 

[sjdavenport]

I don't even want to think about what her breeding contract must look like, lol.

 

[April Nicole]

My girl is a working prospect, but not intended for breeding (I know that is not the usual circumstance, but I wanted a dog with the drive to participate in sports, but am not interested in breeding or showing). So I believe that my particular contract was her standard pet quality contract with a few alterations. None of it was a surprise or sprung on me when I picked Dany up. She sent me a draft of the contract over a month in advance, and we discussed everything in detail. She was happy to adjust it to fit us. For example, she did list certain foods that she recommends and approves, but I feed my adult dogs a homemade food with some commercial raw. We discussed it, and she added it into my contract that she approves that. I also PennHIP tested Dany at 4 months, and won't do OFA hips and elbows until she is over 24months (rather than between 12 and 24mon) so it can be official rather than preliminary in the database. She made those alterations to the contract. Through the entire process, I never found her to be unreasonable.

As far as enforcing it, that's always the tough part. She has little ways of encouraging her buyers stick to it though. She withholds registration papers until you send her proof that you've completed puppy class. In order for her to honor her health guarantee with a replacement puppy if yours develops symptomatic orthopedic disease, you need to follow her requirements as I listed before (keep a good body condition, no free feeding, feed an appropriate food (proof via receipts), no forced exercise, do the hip and elbow rads, spay at the appropriate age, etc). She's really involved with her puppies, so pretty much keeps track of what's going on with them. She has a private Facebook group for her puppy families. She has come to visit Dany since we've gotten her. She has also flown to California to visit one of the other puppies from the litter. She just got back from driving halfway across the country to visit with a dog from a previous litter.

Of course, not everyone wants a puppy that comes attached to such an involved breeder, but I think she's fantastic. I would (and will) purchase a puppy from her again with no hesitation.

Sounds like she cares very much for her pups. Great Breeder!

 

[Pastor Dave]

Your dog.....right?

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

There are varying degrees to every breeder, from the ones that don't take any active roll once they receive the $$ to those that try and control every aspect of the puppy's life through stipulations that you must agree to. It is up to you to find a breeder that you can work with, and that their contracts are ones that can be agreed on by both parties. Nothing drives me more insane than someone signing a contract and then not honoring it because they didn't like this stipulation or that one. If you don't like part of it, talk to the breeder... if they have a valid reason and just won't wiggle on it find another breeder. Our contract is pretty standard in the breed (it needs some revisions as for me it is always a document "in progress" as I learn and grow) but there are very few things set in stone that with some discussion we can usually reach some sort of agreement.

 

[CeeCee]

I wish the rescues would take a page from some of these breeders - specifically training and then offer on-going support for their adopters.

When I went looking for a 3rd pup, I contacted a few Great Dane rescues in my area, letting them know what dogs I currently had and what I was looking for and without asking me any questions (about my current dogs personalities, dispositions, etc., my experience, my comfort level, my home environment, etc.) they flat out refused to adopt a female to me. (At the time, Lila was 8 and I was looking for a female under the age of 1.)

There loud voice in rescue world has very little nice to say about breeders (lumping backyard breeders and dedicated blood, sweat, and tears breeders together). But some of their adoption stipulations actually push people to the very thing they denounce. <Shaking my head, reminding myself that these are not my monkeys.>

BTW, I am 99% sure my next pup will be an EM from a breeder and I fully expect the be run out of the shelter/rescue world with torches lit.

 

[TylerDurden]

Quick question (similar topic): I have noticed that many breeders sell males for higher prices than females. I totally understand that females are biologically more limited with regard to reproduction, but where would the difference in pets come from (assuming no breeding rights were sold).

 

[April Nicole]

Quick question (similar topic): I have noticed that many breeders sell males for higher prices than females. I totally understand that females are biologically more limited with regard to reproduction, but where would the difference in pets come from (assuming no breeding rights were sold).

That's a really good question. I did notice w breeding our mini schnauzer, people sought out females. No breeding rights, just pets, but the females are more desired. And cost more. As to where it seems males are highly sought w large breeds. I'm guessing cause males are larger. And people assume a male will be more protective. Also, a lot of people don't want to deal w a large female going into heat.

 

[Boxergirl]

Quick question (similar topic): I have noticed that many breeders sell males for higher prices than females. I totally understand that females are biologically more limited with regard to reproduction, but where would the difference in pets come from (assuming no breeding rights were sold).

Huh. That's interesting. I've only ever seen females priced higher, and that was only from breeders that I wouldn't call responsible. Not giant breeds though.. I've only used breeders for my boxers, which are Molossers and considered guardians, but size isn't the big issue like it is with the giants. The breeders I've dealt with charged more for show prospects with breeding rights and established working dogs, but the pet pups were priced the same with a spay/neuter clause. Whites are sometimes less than the other pet pups if they are deaf.

 

[TylerDurden]

Huh. That's interesting. I've only ever seen females priced higher, and that was only from breeders that I wouldn't call responsible. Not giant breeds though.. I've only used breeders for my boxers, which are Molossers and considered guardians, but size isn't the big issue like it is with the giants. The breeders I've dealt with charged more for show prospects with breeding rights and established working dogs, but the pet pups were priced the same with a spay/neuter clause. Whites are sometimes less than the other pet pups if they are deaf.

Thanks for sharing your experience with Boxers. I‘ve done some additional (random) search, which was not breed specific. Based on that, I‘ve found equal prices for males and females, "cheaper" males or females respectively, so it‘s probably to the breeder‘s discretion, rather than a common theme among all. I‘m wondering if they base this decision on factors, such as popularity, supply/demand etc. I guess there are many people who have a very strict preference when it comes to selecting the right gender. Many of them are probably not even aware of the actual differentiators, and the fact that it is more specific to the individual dog, rather than gender. Again, just wondering. I‘m probably over-interpreting this.