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Confusions regarding Corsos!

BlackShadowCaneCorso

Super Moderator
Staff member
I would agree that the corso was a working dog that performed whatever task was asked of it, and did it easily for whatever time was required. We however are not for the most part in the position to have dogs that perform those same tasks these days which can cause the challenges that face our breed, and likely most working dogs. How do they fit in today's society? And my biggest worry, that we start to remove or weaken correct temperament so that they are lab like to allow them to be able to be owned by the average Joe rather than cut back on breeding and ensure the best dogs are bred a limited amount for a reason rather than just puppy sales.

However, I expect that is an un- popular opinion and there are those that say unless you are mass producing enough that you can't tell if you are moving forward in the breed because you aren't really making a contribution.
 
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Justin B.

Well-Known Member
I would agree that the corso was a working dog that performed whatever task was asked of it, and did it easily for whatever time was required. We however are not for the most part in the position to have dogs that perform those same tasks these days which can cause the challenges that face our breed, and likely most working dogs. How do they fit in today's society? And my biggest worry, that we start to remove or weaken correct temperament so that they are lab like to allow them to be able to be owned by the average Joe rather than cut back on breeding and ensure the best dogs are bred a limited amount for a reason rather than just puppy sales.

However, I expect that is a popular opinion and there are those that say unless you are mass producing enough that you can't tell if you are moving forward in the breed because you aren't really making a contribution.
Now that is my biggest fear and in my own humble opinion the biggest problem that faces the breed. Far more than the different variants in the show ring. A lot of the confimation happens in fads and trends too in my opinion. Not to mention the standards did change....
Because of the variances in size, color, and type in the Original foundation dogs for both the Italian and Sicilian dogs I can live with a more open standard. Especially since you can easily identify the best of both as Cane Corsos.
What scares me is the drastic watering down in temperament and working ability of the breed. They are way more than just a debatable subjective look.

The breed was around way before the standards, the clubs, and the registries. I dont believe in owning a model or a replica in appearance of the breed. Especially since we are so quick to point to the lore and history of the breed when its convenient for us to brag about our dogs.

When I look at the foundation stock... If it was 100% already a pure breed and they went to such great lengths to only find and use the best of the best....There would not be any questions as to what the orignal dogs looked like. Because the foundation stock would be the orignal dogs.

Becoming popular and making the dog fit into society is sometimes the worst thing that can happen to any real working breed.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
I guess it depends on what one classifies as impressive. .

I agree ........... impressive tends to be a moving target , moved by time and experiences ........... I assure you , the more you adhere and narrow that "standard" window , the less impressive they'll get ........





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Justin B.

Well-Known Member
Interesting... but yet not one of those individuals mentioned temperament being a problem that we are facing :( disappointing.
Exactly... Which would make sense if the dog was a Reconstructed breed for looks. Or if thats how the orignal people advertised the breed and marketed it.
We have been told the complete opposite. I think we should be addressing Temperament, health, and performance first. Than let that kind yeild and have barring in the look. They are doing it backwords in my opinion.

Some very awesome pics and artiles they have done on that magazine site though.

They have a great article about Basir too.
They also have a great interview with Mike Sottile Jr on there
They also do a good job of pointing out the B.S. on both sides
Crazy how much those articles back up and confirm a ton of info in this thread.

Kind of a smoking gun in there too. In the interview Mike Jr accuses the Italian Recovery process of adding in Neo. He even says he knows for a fact which big Americans added in Neo here in the states. How hes not snitching on them. He even mentions how the Neo and Corso are for sure differnt breeds.
He admits to Crossing Corsos but says he sold them as crosses. Would love to see some of his hog dog crosses.

So to kind of bring this back to SOUTHSHORE 's orignal question. This directly CONTRADICTS everything Mr.Salahdin Salam and his YOUTUBE following have been claiming. And if Mike Jr. now supports what Mr. Salam is preaching.....he has done a complete 180. Very fishy. He had accused the Italian recovery process of what he is in support of now.

Sounds like people have puppies to sell or they may be trying to create their own "registery" for dogs that do not have real papers or for dogs that have been proven crosses.
 

BlackShadowCaneCorso

Super Moderator
Staff member
Mike Jr does have mixes now and I believe is trying to market them as a new breed and start a new registry or revive the old FIC one that was used previously.
 

Justin B.

Well-Known Member
Does he have a website or kennel name now??
I know his dads kennel was Alaric I think.
Would love to see what he created.

That would be the best move for him and Mr. Salam. Instead of making confusing youtube videos as to what a "true Cane Corso" is. Sad to see those comments under the vids and see all that misinformation get passed as fact.
 

BlackShadowCaneCorso

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't think he has a kennel name/website/FB page and the group that they were on is not one that I am on and won't be accepted on. I can try to find the name of the group if I am not still blocked to pass on to you but that would be about the best I can manage likely.

It is sad and scary to see the mis-information being spread but that happens a lot when looking at the corso groups... it seems like owning a corso for 5 minutes means you are an instant expert and should dole out your knowledge to all people as if from vast amounts of experience and years in. It is not hard to see why those that have put huge amounts of time in no longer take the time to post much of anything :(
 

Nik

Well-Known Member
I would agree that the corso was a working dog that performed whatever task was asked of it, and did it easily for whatever time was required. We however are not for the most part in the position to have dogs that perform those same tasks these days which can cause the challenges that face our breed, and likely most working dogs. How do they fit in today's society? And my biggest worry, that we start to remove or weaken correct temperament so that they are lab like to allow them to be able to be owned by the average Joe rather than cut back on breeding and ensure the best dogs are bred a limited amount for a reason rather than just puppy sales.

However, I expect that is an un- popular opinion and there are those that say unless you are mass producing enough that you can't tell if you are moving forward in the breed because you aren't really making a contribution.

I am finding this whole thread absolutely fascinating to follow. I also don't disagree about your stance on temperament. I think temperament should be a huge part of any breeding program. I haven't been a part of any dog breeding program ever but years ago in what feels like another lifetime I did breed Bengal cats on a very small level. I think I would have been considered a hobby breeder. I was very involved and active in the breeding community and latched on to several breeders as mentors. I wrote for the club magazine and I showed my cats regularly. I really believed in the breed and working to improve it. It was a lot of work but it was also very rewarding and was something I was passionate about. Sometimes I miss it but I don't miss the drain on finances and the constant work. I do miss the show community, working towards improving a breed, contributing to education about a breed and of course the kittens... though sometimes I don't miss the kittens. It's like puppies - a double edged sword. Adorable and lovable but sooo much work and responsibility.

In any case with the Bengal breed temperament was a huge issue because the closer you got to the preferred look which was closer to the wild ancestors F1s etc you also had to balance that out with temperament as the desire was to get a friendly easily handled cat. And let me tell you the foundation cats were not friendly and easily handled. Most foundation cats were likely to bond only to their family or even one person and had no interest in interacting or allowing interaction with themselves with any other humans. In a show ring that gets you disqualified. The judge has to be able to pick up and stretch the cat out. The cat has to be calm in an environment where people are constantly walking by and staring at it. So basically you are taking this beautiful wild cat that still looks wild and you are trying to infuse that "lab" personality into it. Challenging for sure.

Anyways, I just wanted to say it's been a nice flash to the past to watch this breeding and standard discussion thread. Also absolutely fascinating to see how a breed standard evolves and is debated.
 

mmmcc

Well-Known Member
i think there is a big difference in the AKC working and herding groups between show (confirmation) dogs and working (what those dogs were developed for) lines.
It applies to German Shepherds and Dobbies and Rottweilers and Giant Schnauzers and ....
For the show we are developing perfectly looking dolls with proper angulation and proportions but loosing origin working skills .
As I understand there is no GSD champion in confirmation AND IPO completion
Or there is no Cane Corso to participate in boar hunting and shows....

The good thing is we can pick what kind of dog we want by carefully selecting appropriate breeder and be happy with our 4-legged friend .
 

Justin B.

Well-Known Member
i think there is a big difference in the AKC working and herding groups between show (confirmation) dogs and working (what those dogs were developed for) lines.
It applies to German Shepherds and Dobbies and Rottweilers and Giant Schnauzers and ....
For the show we are developing perfectly looking dolls with proper angulation and proportions but loosing origin working skills .
As I understand there is no GSD champion in confirmation AND IPO completion
Or there is no Cane Corso to participate in boar hunting and shows....

The good thing is we can pick what kind of dog we want by carefully selecting appropriate breeder and be happy with our 4-legged friend .
There was a breeder over 10 years ago that did show and do well ( from what my foggy memory tells me) who also did hunt hogs. He also did what was known as "hog rodeos." Which is essentially hog/ or pig baiting. Which is technically illegal here in America. He use to post the pics and videos online and in the forums. He got charged with animal cruelty. And was dragged through the mud by the Corso community online. I cant remember the name of the breeder or kennel but maybe BlackShadow can recall this as well. I want to say he was based out of Georgia, Florida, or Texas. Cant remeber the exact details.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
He even mentions how the Neo and Corso are for sure differnt breeds.

you can believe that if your inclined , but I can tell you there is zero chance that is true ......... I've got lots of old books , I got an really well done Italian one I can't find right now , I believe 1970 , another a german one called "die hunde der welt" 1960 , by albert Muller verlag , long before the internet I used to get a german publication called seewald , just pics of famous moloser from all over Europe ....... I forgot who wrote the Italian book , but those books were better done on known dogs than any I've ever seen , at least 400 or so different off the wall breeds , some famous neos pictured , along with famous dogues , foundation stuff , and all those old pics they use as old time corso are the same ones they used for old time neos 30-40yrs ago ......... I can tell you lots of pics used on the internet as cane corso , were Neapolitan mastiff foundation dogs ...... if I would have cropped my girls I could have told you they were corso , some of them neo bitches were less than 100lbs ..........


the "hog rodeos" probably Art Parkers , they got busted , they were having them all over the country ....... not a corso event , but I do remember some folks bringing some corso , dogo's , mutts and pits, the event guys were AB , pit folks .............. could have been humanely run , until they did one where they had like 2 hogs and 30-40 dogs , way inhumane , they deserved busted for that........

I've known quite a few hog dogs , "natural" guard dogs , trained protection dogs , and fighting dogs , I do wonder what temperament you think is required , and which temperament in the breed is the problem ?

mike told me the dogs he was going get were kept by farmers and used like our American bulldogs ..........
 

Justin B.

Well-Known Member
you can believe that if your inclined , but I can tell you there is zero chance that is true ......... I've got lots of old books , I got an really well done Italian one I can't find right now , I believe 1970 , another a german one called "die hunde der welt" 1960 , by albert Muller verlag , long before the internet I used to get a german publication called seewald , just pics of famous moloser from all over Europe ....... I forgot who wrote the Italian book , but those books were better done on known dogs than any I've ever seen , at least 400 or so different off the wall breeds , some famous neos pictured , along with famous dogues , foundation stuff , and all those old pics they use as old time corso are the same ones they used for old time neos 30-40yrs ago ......... I can tell you lots of pics used on the internet as cane corso , were Neapolitan mastiff foundation dogs ...... if I would have cropped my girls I could have told you they were corso , some of them neo bitches were less than 100lbs ..........


the "hog rodeos" probably Art Parkers , they got busted , they were having them all over the country ....... not a corso event , but I do remember some folks bringing some corso , dogo's , mutts and pits, the event guys were AB , pit folks .............. could have been humanely run , until they did one where they had like 2 hogs and 30-40 dogs , way inhumane , they deserved busted for that........

I've known quite a few hog dogs , "natural" guard dogs , trained protection dogs , and fighting dogs , I do wonder what temperament you think is required , and which temperament in the breed is the problem ?

mike told me the dogs he was going get were kept by farmers and used like our American bulldogs ..........
I have owned BOTH.
The Cane Corso is a coursing mastiff. As stated in this thread many times. Anyone who has ever owned a decent example of one will tell you this. A Neo is not a coursing mastiff. Facts.....

More facts... The gate is completely different

Bone structure and density are vastly different.
Not only that they are a medium to a high energy dog with a lot more drive.

A Neo is a low energy dog especially in comparison.
This is from Sottile himself as well.....

Corso breeders incorrectly using old Neo pics doesn't prove anything. I have seen Neo pics. Presa pics and bandog pics labeled as Corsos.

Been around working and game dogs all my life.

What im referring to is an actual Cane Corso breeder who participated in those events as stated....He might of even been a member of the Association that put the events on. Yes i do remember he was busted in some tyoe of nationwide sting.

My issues with the Corsos temperament are stated in other post.
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
i think there is a big difference in the AKC working and herding groups between show (confirmation) dogs and working (what those dogs were developed for) lines.
It applies to German Shepherds and Dobbies and Rottweilers and Giant Schnauzers and ....
For the show we are developing perfectly looking dolls with proper angulation and proportions but loosing origin working skills .
As I understand there is no GSD champion in confirmation AND IPO completion
Or there is no Cane Corso to participate in boar hunting and shows....

The good thing is we can pick what kind of dog we want by carefully selecting appropriate breeder and be happy with our 4-legged friend .

I specifically wanted a working dog and found breeders with imports of working lines. I have a friend here that has a Cane Corso that is more docile, large, not as shiny (not sure what that's about) and much taller that my female. Both AKC and ICCF but totally different dogs in almost every aspect aside from a similar appearance knowing they are both CC's. From the time I met his dog, I wondered what could have possibly been mixed in that made him so different. Are the working lines that much different in CC's?

"As I understand there is no GSD champion in confirmation AND IPO completion" There is in Cane Corso which I found pretty cool.

Interesting thread.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
a coursing mastiff ? not many dogs can run down an animal , well at least fast ones ....... i'm sure none of them are mastiffs , I think that would be more along wolfhound lines , greyhounds , deerhounds ? thinking a mastiff would be a catchdog , a fighting dog , protection dog or a guard dog ..............

the idea of purebred dogs might be 100yrs old .....none of them have their own history beyond that , most way less .......... todays neos are just an example of the plasticity of genetics and how badly purebred dog breeders ideas work out .... different gaits , yes , todays neos are pretty handicapped ........... a dog with proper conformation and health has a dog gait , there are like 4 gaits they use ? if they got to make up another one , there something is wrong with the dog .....

as far as a dog that can excel as a guard dog , a catchdog , a protection dog , and a fighting dog , I only know of one breed that does it somewhat regularly ....... and it's really not temperament , it's drives ,and intelligence .........


1970_Neapolitan_Mastiff.jpg


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guaglione.jpg


old-type-neapolitan-mastiff.jpg
 

Justin B.

Well-Known Member
I specifically wanted a working dog and found breeders with imports of working lines. I have a friend here that has a Cane Corso that is more docile, large, not as shiny (not sure what that's about) and much taller that my female. Both AKC and ICCF but totally different dogs in almost every aspect aside from a similar appearance knowing they are both CC's. From the time I met his dog, I wondered what could have possibly been mixed in that made him so different. Are the working lines that much different in CC's?

"As I understand there is no GSD champion in confirmation AND IPO completion" There is in Cane Corso which I found pretty cool.

Interesting thread.
Yes. They are that much different. Great real world example. Exactly what I have been refering too. It could be from outside breeds. However, it could just as well be from "poor" breeding practices.
The orignal Sottile dogs were known to be what is considered "hot." Not ideal for first time dog owners. They had dog aggression. High prey drive. Even extra aggressive towards people. This is not ideal for selling dogs in American suburban areas or to American suburban people. This is also not ideal for confirmation and dog shows. So American breeders do what they do best. Breed for a specific look and type. They purposefully demonize things hot working dogs are known for and try to pretend they never existed in the orignal dogs. Since most people here dont need a real working dog they simply just rely on breed mythogy and a look to give them a false sense of security that their dog could preform in a real world working situations.
Also, American culture and laws overall arent really conducive to real working dogs in this modern age. Other countries are much harsher with their breeding programs and testing processes.
 

Justin B.

Well-Known Member
a coursing mastiff ? not many dogs can run down an animal , well at least fast ones ....... i'm sure none of them are mastiffs , I think that would be more along wolfhound lines , greyhounds , deerhounds ? thinking a mastiff would be a catchdog , a fighting dog , protection dog or a guard dog ..............

the idea of purebred dogs might be 100yrs old .....none of them have their own history beyond that , most way less .......... todays neos are just an example of the plasticity of genetics and how badly purebred dog breeders ideas work out .... different gaits , yes , todays neos are pretty handicapped ........... a dog with proper conformation and health has a dog gait , there are like 4 gaits they use ? if they got to make up another one , there something is wrong with the dog .....

as far as a dog that can excel as a guard dog , a catchdog , a protection dog , and a fighting dog , I only know of one breed that does it somewhat regularly ....... and it's really not temperament , it's drives ,and intelligence .........


1970_Neapolitan_Mastiff.jpg


1970s_Neapolitan_Mastiff2.jpg


1970s_Neapolitan_Mastiff.jpg


c1c6227d4436431f1ccb442c64f6aa5f---neapolitan-mastiffs.jpg


85768ced474e9256b7a385f470dbf463--neopolitan-mastiff-.jpg


guaglione.jpg


old-type-neapolitan-mastiff.jpg
Im not trying to be rude or condescending....But that is LITTERALLY what Cane Corsos are known for. That should probably be known before somebody tries to pass any knowledge of the breed. Very basic Corso 101. Its mentioned in this thread many times.
This is something both the Italians, Americans and EVERY Corso book and literature agree on.
Its very dishonest and egotistical to dismiss that.

I have seen my dog catch a deer. I have seen the aftermath of a dog from my lines that killed a deer. Every Corso owner probably has a deer story. These dogs go crazy for deer and will do more than just chase them. Broken chains. Even had a dog break a prong collar on a lead to run into a giant herd of deer.

Rabbits too....

Those are Nice old Neo pics too. Have seen them all before.

Also forgot to mention totally different top lines. Those pics totally reminded me of that.

They share a resemblance. They share a common ancestry. And if all the speculation is true.... and if Mike Sottile Jr is being honost many lines have actual Neo blood in them. None of that makes them the same breed especially at this point.

Working line Corsos can Guard, Protect, and Catch.... They are absolutely NOT A FIGHTING DOGS.

Breeders trying to change and adjust temperaments does absolutely effect drive. Also certain drives mistakenly get classified as non stable temperaments.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
all dogs chase deer , i'd love to hear all the deer stories , I seen a doe with 2 babies kick the s==t out of a 150lb dog ....... unless there's something wrong with the deer they don't catch them , a deer can clear an 8 foot fence , can go up an almost vertical cliff ....stray dogs eat garbage and die young . if you got a mastiff that can hit 30mph , that is one special dog ............. my dogs are smaller lighter mastiffs , I've run them my entire life , it's what I selected them on , had some amazingly fit agile mastiffs and hounds .......

as far as fighting dogs , your misinformed on that ...... that'd be firsthand info from me .......you seem to have accentuated that ?? all these dogs were selected on fighting ability , what do think is the number #1 predator a farm owner has to worry about is ? it's not deer ............ they're bred for exactly the same purpose American bulldogs are and bordeauxs were , they all were all at one time selected on their ability to fight ......... those folks knew the attributes to be an exceptional fighting dog translated to a lot of working endeavors ........ I've seen fighting dogs as sweet as the day is long , and others that would bite you without question , just for being within range ........the only need I've ever seen for those sharp distrustful defensive aggressive tempers is for folks who just want a dangerous dog as protection , little to no training necessary , there are folks in a position to where that dog works , most dog owners I know are not capable of that responsibility , and that temperament in the majority of dog households is one that will create more bsl laws for me to deal with .......

Mike Sottile knows those dogs got neo in them , you see a farmer in Italy with some unregistered dogs that resemble neos ????? a lost breed ? lots of pics have popped up of that lost breed , how lost could it have been ........ i'm not knocking the breed , they're awesome dogs , a good job has been done in homogenizing the breed , which is where a standard can be helpful ....... better than a standard , you stay within the gene pool , and pick impressive pups that turn into impressive dogs ......... my guess is those farmers didn't have a standard to go by ....... the guy that decided it would be a breed is the guy who had the standard , look at the modern neo and how great that works ............


I've had some fast fit dogs , I don't think the sighthound folks have anything to worry about ...........

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and some fast fit dogs to compare them too

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Justin B.

Well-Known Member
all dogs chase deer , i'd love to hear all the deer stories , I seen a doe with 2 babies kick the s==t out of a 150lb dog ....... unless there's something wrong with the deer they don't catch them , a deer can clear an 8 foot fence , can go up an almost vertical cliff ....stray dogs eat garbage and die young . if you got a mastiff that can hit 30mph , that is one special dog ............. my dogs are smaller lighter mastiffs , I've run them my entire life , it's what I selected them on , had some amazingly fit agile mastiffs and hounds .......

as far as fighting dogs , your misinformed on that ...... that'd be firsthand info from me .......you seem to have accentuated that ?? all these dogs were selected on fighting ability , what do think is the number #1 predator a farm owner has to worry about is ? it's not deer ............ they're bred for exactly the same purpose American bulldogs are and bordeauxs were , they all were all at one time selected on their ability to fight ......... those folks knew the attributes to be an exceptional fighting dog translated to a lot of working endeavors ........ I've seen fighting dogs as sweet as the day is long , and others that would bite you without question , just for being within range ........the only need I've ever seen for those sharp distrustful defensive aggressive tempers is for folks who just want a dangerous dog as protection , little to no training necessary , there are folks in a position to where that dog works , most dog owners I know are not capable of that responsibility , and that temperament in the majority of dog households is one that will create more bsl laws for me to deal with .......

Mike Sottile knows those dogs got neo in them , you see a farmer in Italy with some unregistered dogs that resemble neos ????? a lost breed ? lots of pics have popped up of that lost breed , how lost could it have been ........ i'm not knocking the breed , they're awesome dogs , a good job has been done in homogenizing the breed , which is where a standard can be helpful ....... better than a standard , you stay within the gene pool , and pick impressive pups that turn into impressive dogs ......... my guess is those farmers didn't have a standard to go by ....... the guy that decided it would be a breed is the guy who had the standard , look at the modern neo and how great that works ............


I've had some fast fit dogs , I don't think the sighthound folks have anything to worry about ...........

abby9.jpg


liv2.jpg


Picture41544.jpg


and some fast fit dogs to compare them too

1231001107.jpg
You're 2nd guesses and stories do not trump what actual owners and breeders of the Cane Corso know. Try to remain objective. Its possible to learn things about a breed you may not have 1st hand knowledge of no matter hiw much you know about your dogs and other breeds.

As far your DDB go they dont have anything to do with what a Cane Corso can do. You speculating on what they can do based off your on stock of a different breed is just not a good or a realistic comparison. Come on.

You dont think some Cane Corsos are more Athletic, Agile, and faster than your DDBs??????????????

Its not consistent or right to sight old books...then ignore the old books and all the Corso literature that call them coursing Mastiffs or the most athletic of the mastiff breeds.

Did you read Steven C's post above. He has both a Corso and a DDB. Maybe he can give a little more insight about his 2 dogs and the difference in hunting attributes.

A Cane Corso is not a fighting breed or a game dog . By my standards. I think its bad for thw breed to even associate them in that light.

The original dogs had no standards because real working dogs are bred for function to follow form. Disqualifying faults for colors and looks dont exist with most real hardcore working breeds.
I think your Neo pics kind of do point out the importance of a standard. To an untrained eye a couple of those pics look very similar to a large, loose, and sloppy Corso. But if you compared them to the standard they would not meet it.