Stool

[marke]

Erm, no, if the bone content is 10% of the total then yes, thats balanced, and the calcium and phos numbers are at dang near perfect ratio, but a drumstick by itself is 30% or more bone, which is way to much calcium. And there's no way to to subtract the extra calcium from the kibble to make the difference.

I believe a bone is 20% water , and 66% calcium phosphate ,or something close to that . I believe the calcium to phosphorus ratio in a bone is inline with what the dog food companies have found is the optimum ratio .... . I think the studies on dietary calcium where they created problems were pretty excessive and/or minimal amounts with variable phosphorus levels . I believe the range is fairly large , and there are mechanisms within the dogs body which regulate the absorption of calcium ......... the only real hard science on canine nutrition is from the dog food companies . the rest is anecdotal , and myself personally , if i'm gonna go on anecdotal , it's gonna be my experiences ......... as should everybody ..........

 

[ruthcatrin]

Can you get me the studies/lab data where they broke down the contents of bone?

Thing is, for a growing dog, its not JUST the calcium to phos ratio, its also the total calcium. Doubling the calcium amount for a dog who's got so much growing ahead of her is a fairly drastic amount. I'm not at my computer right now, so I don't have my links to pull up the actual studies.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Intestinal Calcium Absorption in Growing Dogs Is Influenced by Calcium Intake and Age but Not by Growth Rate Showed that young dogs absorb calcium at a higher rate than adult dogs, in layman's terms: puppies lack the ability to regulate their calcium intake correctly.

Hazewinkel, H.A.W., Goedegebuure S.A., Poulos, P.W., Wolvekamp, W.Th.C. Influences of chronic calcium excess on the skeletal development of growing Great Danes. J. Am. Anim. Hosp. Assoc. 1985; 21: 377-391 Does not appear to be availible online, however everyone who quotes it agrees that it shows: inappropriate amounts of calcium have also been shown to cause developmental bone disease, excessive calcium may result in skeletal malformation. This article is on my list to eventually track down and read a hard copy off but its going to mean a trip to Cornell.

Are Organic Zinc Sources Efficacious in Puppies? "With increasing dietary Ca, Zn concentrations in plasma, teeth and testes tended to decline. This tendency was observed for both Zn sources." Short form, the puppies' ability to absorb zinc properly was affected by their calcium intake. They saw a decrease in zinc absorbtion with as little as a 5g increase in calcium. Zinc is an essential component in the enzymes that handle protein metabolism (among other things).

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/121/11_Suppl/S99.full.pdf They did use excessive calcium intake (both high and low), however they also made a point of using not only screwed up ratios with phos, but also the correct ratios with phos (for the amount of calcium fed). The dogs fed high amounts of calcium all retained far to much calcium, regardless of the phos ratio.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

I've run a couple of experiments over the last two days.

If I feed P two cups of food, she poops mush. One to 1.5 cups gives her "almost" normal poo. It's a bit softer than I'd like it to be, but far more normal than it has been.

If I feed her 1 cop, she acts like she's starving and wolfs her food down in less than a minute. 1.5 to 2 cups takes her longer to eat (obviously) and keeps her from trying to eat everything in the house.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Some of that is likely because she's used to getting more food, so getting less makes her feel hungry even though she's getting enough (nutrient wise). She should adapt.

Are you using kibble for training treats (under normal situations anyway)? You could add an extra 1/2cup a day in the form of kibble training treats, and use that I"M HUNGRY drive to help keep her attention on you. Measure out a 1/2 cup and keep it in a baggie for use through out the day.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

Food is the only thing I give her so I have been using it for treats. Should she be used to the food by the time her vet appt. rolls around on the 1st? I want to give her time to get used to it so I can tell the Dr. exactly what's going on. I don't want him to be able to dismiss her issues as "she's just getting used to her new food."

 

[ruthcatrin]

If she's got reasonably solid poop then yah. But if you explain how long this has been going on and he still dismisses it you need a new vet.....a parasite check is quick and easy, and even bloodwork to do a quick kidney/liver function check isn't hard or time consuming if you want that done too.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

He seems like a pretty good vet, but we've only seen him once for her hygroma and that was a quick in and out thing. I want him to do a parasite check, especially for giardia, like AB suggested. Should I ask for the blood work as well, if the parasite tests come back negative?

 

[ruthcatrin]

Where you're already seeing a difference just by changing her total intake I'd not be in a rush to do the bloodwork. Unless something changes anyway. On the other hand if doing the bloodwork with help ease your mind then theres no harm in doing it.

 

[Dreadz]

Have you tried something like milled flax seed? It's a great source of fibre which can help both with the soft poo and also with making the stomach feel fuller. It's worked wonders with my presa.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

Is that the same kind of flax seed that humans consume? I'm always afraid to give her fiber because I think of it as something that will make her poo more.

 

[Dreadz]

Is that the same kind of flax seed that humans consume? I'm always afraid to give her fiber because I think of it as something that will make her poo more.

Yes exactly the same stuff. I buy mine from a health food shop, did get some strange looks when I first told them it was for my dog not me!
I know it does seem counter intuitive but fibre has really helped my presa and from what I've read online she's not the only one.
The Benefits of Dog Food Fiber (Part 1)
There is obviously a balance to be achieved so start small and increase the daily intake until the required effect is achieved.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

I may actually have some flax seed around here somewhere, or is that chia seeds? lol I'll look. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Dreadz]

You're welcome I use cold milled flax seed but I imagine whole seeds would work although they may not absorb as much moisture. Be prepared for some extra gas too for a week or so until their system adjusts to it. Hope it helps

 

[angelbears]

IMPO, if Miss P is firming up with the decrease of food I would not even go to the vet. I believe that less is more. Before I would start adding a bunch of supplements I would just decrease her intake. She already seems to be improving. The more you add in the harder it is to go back and try to figure out what is causing what. Start with a clean slate, just her dog food (decreased amounts). If she still has soft poo after a couple of weeks. Then I would do a parasite check. If that comes back clean then I would start trying different things.

Young dogs have an immature immune system, add in stress of learning all the new things they encounter daily and little things can throw off their system. Case in point, all dogs have mites but usually only young dogs or immune compromised dogs have a problem. Same goes for parasites, we all have them.

Soft poop or runny poop doesn't bother me. I worry when they have the squirts or they can't hold it.

 

[marke]

as far as the chemical makeup of a bone , i'm sure there are other things aside from water and calcium phosphate .... but i'm also sure the water and calcium phosphate is about what I said , or I wouldn't have said it . I did skim through two of the links you provided , actually because I thought it would make no sense for an animal to have no control over calcium absorption at a point in it's life when calcium absorption is at it's most critical time ...... and both of the two links I read did say puppies control their calcium absorption ...... here is the full text of the first http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132/11/3363.full

When they are raised on Ca-deficient diets, giant and small breed dogs have elevated plasma 1,25(OH)[SUB]2[/SUB]D concentrations and fractional Ca absorption rates as high as 80 to 90% after weaning (8,10,11). When raised on a Ca-oversupplemented diet, plasma 1,25(OH)[SUB]2[/SUB]D concentrations decrease, accompanied by fractional Ca absorption rates as low as 40% (8,11*13). Therefore, dogs of giant and small breeds are expected to be able to regulate their Ca absorption soon after weaning.

and the higher excretion at 14 weeks in the 3rd link would certainly indicate control over absorption ......

The HCHP-diet-fed group had also a significantly
higher Vf than their controls at 14 wk of age.

from reading these two sites it appears to little calcium is more of a health risk than too much ...... I would never supplement a puppy with calcium , as excessive calcium is detrimental to the health of a puppy ...... but I've raised a boat load of puppies and they have always had bones to chew on ............. i'm convinced after many years of seeing other people raise my dogs , proper exercise and weight are the main problem ....... you can raise a healthy dog on eukanuba , purina , pedigree , diamond................. I just fed my dogs a few minutes ago , and I thought to myself , I can't remember the last time I looked at the recommended feeding amounts on a bag of dog food ....... I have solid gold and totw here and I've never even looked at the package label ....if I fed all my dogs the same , i'd have fat dogs and skinny dogs ... I don't believe you need to be a physiologist , or mathematician to rause a healthy dog .......

 

[Penelope's Mom]

IMPO, if Miss P is firming up with the decrease of food I would not even go to the vet. I believe that less is more. Before I would start adding a bunch of supplements I would just decrease her intake. She already seems to be improving. The more you add in the harder it is to go back and try to figure out what is causing what. Start with a clean slate, just her dog food (decreased amounts). If she still has soft poo after a couple of weeks. Then I would do a parasite check. If that comes back clean then I would start trying different things.

Young dogs have an immature immune system, add in stress of learning all the new things they encounter daily and little things can throw off their system. Case in point, all dogs have mites but usually only young dogs or immune compromised dogs have a problem. Same goes for parasites, we all have them.

Soft poop or runny poop doesn't bother me. I worry when they have the squirts or they can't hold it.

I am definitely seeing an improvement with less food. I can feed her between 1 and 1.5 cups at every meal with no repercussions. She acts like she's starving, but her poop is more solid that it's ever been.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I'm with AB at this point honestly. If the vet check makes you feel better there's no harm in it, but where less food is firming her up I'd give her a couple weeks at the new levels and then re-evaluate unless she suddenly reverts before making any more changes.

Marke: "I'm sure" is nice and all, but where did you get your numbers from?? And just based on your own numbers, giving a puppy a drumstick would be supplementing with calcium, so please make up your mind on what you're trying to say.

 

[ruthcatrin]

And I'll add that "self regulation of calcium" or not, the last study I quoted very clearly showed that the dogs' absorbed calcium IS affected by how much they intake, correct phos ratio or not. By YOUR numbers a drumstick would contain even more calcium than I said it did, so adding a drumstick to a pup's diet would be a HUGE increase in absorbed calcium, correct phos ratio or not.

 

[Smokeycat]

It's amazing just how much the amount of food fed can affect them. Kryten can have issues with as little as 1/2 cup too much but 1/2 cup too little and he starts losing weight.